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AMD seems to finally be fully ahead of Intel after 14 years


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#1 Sneaky Snake

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Posted 08 October 2020 - 08:10 PM

With Ryzen 5000 reveal today and the massive increase in performance it brings over Ryzen 3000, AMD seems to have finally re-taken the overall performance crown from Intel. A crown that Intel has held since 2006 when the Core 2 Duo released.

Going off of AMD's first party benchmarks as well as the fact that AMD is pricing Ryzen 5000 as more expensive then Intel I think says enough about Ryzen 5000's upcoming performance and AMD's confidence in it.

Intel's stronghold in gaming seems to now be at best tied with AMD, and at worst - behind by ~20% in performance (10900K vs 5900X). CAD was also a huge stronghold of Intel's and that looks to be around 5% faster on the AMD platform.

Obviously, all of this should be taken with a grain of salt as we wait for independent benchmarks, but it really seems incredible how far AMD has come. From the brink of bankruptcy to now making Intel the "budget option" for high end desktops. I'm really exciting to see how Intel responds with their upcoming 10nm desktop chips that are due in 2021, and then how AMD will respond to that. A truly exciting time for the PC industry. Competition in the CPU market has never been this intense.

Here is Linus's video talking about the upcoming Ryzen 5000 chips

Despite the huge performance increase, I'm not sure I will upgrade to Ryzen 5000 even though my motherboard supports it. My black friday special 3600X does just fine paired with my RTX 2080 at 1440p, but it it sure nice having the option.
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#2 Ichigo27

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Posted 08 October 2020 - 09:17 PM

View PostSneaky Snake, on 08 October 2020 - 08:10 PM, said:

Despite the huge performance increase, I'm not sure I will upgrade to Ryzen 5000 even though my motherboard supports it. My black friday special 3600X does just fine paired with my RTX 2080 at 1440p, but it it sure nice having the option.

In other words, the Ryzen 5000 series AM4 CPUs that are launching in november have an X for each processor? No 5200G nor 5400Gs? Therefore, they don't even have integrated graphics included? If thats the case, well thats a bummer that they aren't like the 3200G or 3400G ryzens. Even mobile 4000 ryzens have integrated vega or radeon graphics last I checked.
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#3 Sneaky Snake

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Posted 08 October 2020 - 09:51 PM

Currently only 4 CPUs have been announced and the cheapest is a $300 6c/12t part. They are focusing on mid to high end desktop for starters.

More CPUs and G series ones are certainly coming, but aren’t in the initial launch on Nov 5. I would expect the 5000G series chips sometime in 2021. I think their thinking is that anyone who cares about integrated graphics probably doesn’t care as much about bleeding edge CPU performance, so those users can buy a 4000G series chip.

If someone does want the top end 5950X but doesn’t care much about graphics then they could always buy a cheap GT 1030 or something in the meantime.
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#4 Ichigo27

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Posted 08 October 2020 - 10:35 PM

GT 1030? I remember reading a article about that entry level nvidia card don't recall what the URL for it was, but pretty much it ran slower than the Vega11 in the 3400G ryzen. Recently I've been hearing that integrated Vega graphics in low end 3000 ryzens and mobile 4000U series CPUs have decent performance on linux distros like ubuntu or Arch.

If I somehow ended up with a affordable lenovo linux desktop computer with a AMD CPU it would be great to have a decent APU if it doesn't have at least a mid range GPU similar to a radeon RX 5600.
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#5 Thain Esh Kelch

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Posted 08 October 2020 - 11:11 PM

The 4000G APUs were announced in July, so you are still getting ammodern chip if younwant them, despite being 'only' Zen2.
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#6 Cougar

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Posted 09 October 2020 - 06:24 AM

Passing on it for now. Not thrilled with the price increase, and the lack of a 5700x is a bit odd. I donít want to spend $450 for eight cores.

I play at 4K anyway so my 2600 can still handle my 3080 for the moment. Will probably upgrade in a year when AM5 is out and the 4K 144hz monitor market has better options.

#7 Sneaky Snake

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Posted 09 October 2020 - 06:39 AM

You could drop in the 5800X or the 5700X (assuming it is coming later) at some point for a relatively "cheap" upgrade that doesn't require a new motherboard. They will go on sale at some point. I think that is what I am going to do.

The price increase is substantial, but I guess they feel they can command that now. $50 price increase, plus they aren't including a cooler with the 5800X and above, which means substantially higher margins for them. In the end, both Intel and AMD are just corporations who only care about how much $$$ they can extract from the consumer.
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#8 Thain Esh Kelch

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Posted 09 October 2020 - 11:23 AM

At least they appeared to be quite honest about the performance, since they showed -3% for Battlefield V. I liked that.
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#9 Tetsuya

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Posted 09 October 2020 - 06:39 PM

Never buy a GT 1030.  You can get an RX 570 for ~100$ new.  Maybe 110$  Sub 70$ used.  

The 4000-named APUs are not for the general public.  You cant buy them.  They are for OEMs only, and have Vega 7, but seriously upclocked (1900mhz+ vs the 1450mhz of the Vega 11 in the 2400/3400G) and range from R3s to the R7s.  Also, AFAIK, despite being anounced, no OEM is actually using them.  Ive never seen one in the wild.  And yes, they are Zen 2 parts.  Not that that is bad or something.  

AMD was smart not to call Zen 3 parts Ryzen 4000, given that Zen-2 based laptop APUs and the phantom OEM 4000 APU chips are Zen 2 - differentiating Zen 3 from Zen 2 was essential, IMO, and im glad they did it.  

The reason they dont include and iGPU is because no one really uses it and unlike with Intel, you cant use it for hardware encoding.  I think AMD said their internal numbers showed that sub 15% of people ever used the iGPU - and quite likely anyone in that category is probably fine with a 4/8 part like the 2400/3400G.  (I have a 2400G in my HTPC, its great, if only because it supports 4K/60 over HDMI 2.0, which Intel Integrated cant until you get to the new Xe parts).  

Im sure there will be a few low to midrange APU parts (probably a 2/4 Athlon branded part, a 4/8 R3 and a 6/12 R5) along eventually, lets hope that this time they dont foolishly brand them as 5000 parts and still use Zen 2.  

I'd also assume the reported gains will be lower than they showed but still technically "better" than Intel in most situations.  The 19% IPC increase has the typical marketing speech of "in optimized applications" applied to it, so i'd say.. probably realistically its a 10% IPC increase (which is fine, since they were at relative parity with Zen 2) and probably another 10% performance boost due to less power consumption (so less heat, faster stock and all core clocks) - which will put them ahead of Intel by a decent margin.... for now, and when not taking OCs into account.  The rumors are that Zen 3 is no better at OCing than Zen/Zen+/Zen 2 are - which means that AMD basically puts it all on the table to start, which is fine.  The way XFR works anyway, itll always boost as high as it can given thermal and power constraints anyway without doing any manual OCing so its largely not needed anyway.  

But Comet Lake hits 5.3 on OK air cooling and 5.5 on great cooling (custom loop or something massive like a Noctua NH-D15 or a BeQuiet! Dark Rock Pro 4)... so itll be relative performance parity or JUST a bit faster for AMD.  

Given that Intel chips come with some built in advantages (if you do video or work or streaming, you can use the iGPU to do hardware encoding if you have a discrete GPU, as an example) including MUCH less issue with RAM (generally speaking except in weird badly made motherboards, if you put RAM in an Intel system, enable XFR, itll just work; Ryzen, even Zen 2, still has serious RAM issues - though if the IMC was redesigned Zen 3 may not have this problem).. a lot of people will stick to Intel just for the ease of support.  (Jay at Jayz2Cents did a video about why a lot of people still use Intel; even he admitted his Ryzen systems in the office (that he and his editor do video work on) require constant babying and quite a bit more support time than Intel rigs).  

The performance difference wont be enough to swam them.... especially since it seems Ryzen will no longer offer a price/performance advantage (which it had in spades with Zen 2, with the 3600 often being on sale for 180$).  

And then there's the elephant in the room....

Intel isn't gonna be out of it for long.  

Tiger Lake (10nm Laptop) beats the bejezus out of Ryzen.  Like... a 4/8 part running neck and neck with a solid 8-core Zen 2 Ryzen laptop.  With better iGPU performance (thanks to Xe).  Their 10nm process is actually more dense than TSMCs 7nm (because TSMC uses a pretty shady method of determining node size; density is whats important anyway).  The 8/16 Tiger Lake parts due out in Q1 2021 look to basically curb-stomp Zen 2 laptop parts.  

And most of that is due entirely to the new Core architecture - Willow Cove - the first actual new uArch since Skylake.  And its a LOT more efficient (large IPC gains).  

Rocket Lake, while still being 14nm - uses Willow Cove, back-ported to the 14nm process.  Its likely to eliminate the IPC gains of Zen 3.  Which will put Intel back in the lead (marginally - at this point, +/- ~8-10% isnt really that important except for Power Users who are likely using Threadripper and Xeons anyway.) but its not going to put Zen 3 out of business or anything.  

Either CPU will be a solid investment for a rig.  Heck, a 3600 or 10600F will easily last the viable lifetime of the platform anyway (I.E. the time when you're likely to upgrade to get access to new features like USB4, more M.2 slots, etc) and still perform just fine.  

I built my wife a rig so she could stream from the kitchen (shes doing cooking because her friends apparently dont know how) - bought a cheap ITX mobo (that had a 3750 in it) and swapped the CPU for the 3770 i had sitting in an old Optiplex, threw 8GB of RAM in it, put in a 240GB SSD (InWin Chopin for the case, its tiny)... and it runs great.  Easily handles 3 cameras in 1080p/30 livestreaming to Twitch.  

That CPU is 9 years old.  You can still game on it just fine, too (when i had it in the Optiplex i refurbed the machine with a new PSU and an Rx 470) and it ram Doom Eternal at 60fps @ 1080p and high settings.  (It still does even with the i5 3750 in it now).  

CPUs are lasting quite a bit longer these days.   Any modern platform (Comet Lake or the upcoming Rocket Lake, Zen 2 or 3) will be just fine for the entire feasible lifetime of the machine.

#10 Sneaky Snake

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Posted 10 October 2020 - 12:37 AM

Intel will certainly come back swinging. They have a lot of crowns to re-take, which I'm sure they will re-take at least some of them. Currently AMD has a long list of wins over Intel (assuming we can trust the first party benchmarks):
  • Single thread performance crown
  • Multi thread performance crown
  • Gaming performance crown
  • Storage performance crown (PCIe 4.0)

Quote

Tiger Lake (10nm Laptop) beats the bejezus out of Ryzen.  Like... a 4/8 part running neck and neck with a solid 8-core Zen 2 Ryzen laptop

I think that is a bit of a stretch. Tiger Lake certainly performs extremely well in tasks that can leverage its single thread performance and/or Intel specific technologies (QuickSync, AVX512, etc.). However when looking at more general tasks that are just raw power related (rendering, encoding), it is losing quite heavily to the 4800U. Intel tried very hard to move the goalposts away from raw CPU benchmarks towards more "real world" benchmarks with the launch of Tiger Lake, since they know that they simply can't compete with an 8c/16t chip in raw performance. I do think there is a lot of merit in their approach to benchmarks (CPU performance is about much more then just a cinebench score), however an 8c/16t chip that simply has a lot more raw, general, performance is going to age much better when looking 2-3 years down the road.

I am basing this off of Anandtech's review of Tiger Lake
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#11 Ichigo27

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Posted 10 October 2020 - 01:08 PM

View PostThain Esh Kelch, on 08 October 2020 - 11:11 PM, said:

The 4000G APUs were announced in July, so you are still getting ammodern chip if younwant them, despite being 'only' Zen2.

When 4000U cpus are designed only for laptops?
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#12 Sneaky Snake

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Posted 11 October 2020 - 12:45 PM

View PostIchigo27, on 10 October 2020 - 01:08 PM, said:

When 4000U cpus are designed only for laptops?

4000U series is laptops

4000G series is desktops. It's the replacement for the 3200G, 3400G, etc.

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#13 Ichigo27

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Posted 11 October 2020 - 08:06 PM

View PostSneaky Snake, on 11 October 2020 - 12:45 PM, said:

4000U series is laptops

I think 4800H as well to add into the laptop category.

View PostSneaky Snake, on 11 October 2020 - 12:45 PM, said:

4000G series is desktops. It's the replacement for the 3200G, 3400G, etc.

Recently checked Lenovos site, a few months back I heard they were going to start selling 4000G series in their desktops, have yet to see any, let alone 4000G desktop computers with Ubuntu preloaded. And a few months back Lenovo said they were going to start selling more ubuntu certified computers.

To be honest, I haven't heard much about how well those linux pre loaded computers of theirs act compared to buying a thinkpad with windows 10 pre loaded and messing around with the BIOS in order to install one.
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