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WWDC 2k17

Word Wide Richard Conference

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#21 macdude22

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 03:07 PM

View PostJanichsan, on 05 June 2017 - 02:52 PM, said:

NVMe SSDs of that size are really, really expensive. As simple as that.

I like how Retail is HIGHER than MSRP on those lol.
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#22 Spike

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 03:13 PM

Apple also announced their first computer (upcoming iMac Pro) with 10Gbps ethernet that I have been waiting for as my network is too slow. Hopefully that will trickle to the MacBook Pro in 2018 (Im sure they wont include a port that I use 95% of the time, but maybe a thunderbolt to 10Gps ethernet adapter).

Their update of the MacBook Pro did include 7th Gen Kaby Lake which doesnt do much except save chips, and upgraded the GPU Radeon Pro 460 to Radeon Pro 560. The information I find on the 560 is peak performance went from 1.863 to 1.9 TFLOPS and bandwidth from 80GB/s to 81GB/s.

#23 BifBologna

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 03:44 PM

Quick curiosity question about eGPU's from the terminally under informed...

Since Apple is planning on supporting eGPU's in the future and the majority of Apple's current lineup include a display of some sort, will it be possible to use an eGPU with the internal display of, say, an iMac?

#24 RGoulder

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 04:11 PM

View PostBifBologna, on 05 June 2017 - 03:44 PM, said:

Quick curiosity question about eGPU's from the terminally under informed...

Since Apple is planning on supporting eGPU's in the future and the majority of Apple's current lineup include a display of some sort, will it be possible to use an eGPU with the internal display of, say, an iMac?

Once Apple supports eGPU's, yeah they should be able to run the internal display of an iMac or Macbook pro. From what I understand they already can when you are running Microsoft Windows on a Mac and have an eGPU. Apple's lack of native support has been the problem.

Edit: It appears as though, while possible, there is a significant performance drop and requires some workarounds to get it to function. So the answer really is more of a no which is unfortunate given that thunderbolt 3 is offered only on Apple's all in one computers.

#25 Frost

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 05:01 PM

View PostRGoulder, on 05 June 2017 - 02:15 PM, said:

I'd be willing to plunk down some money for a new iMac though I'm tempted to wait for the new iMac Pro. The one thing I'm confused about price wise is the cost of the SSD 2TB drive upgrade from Apple's build options for the new iMac. Its $1400. That seems really, really high. I have no idea why its that high. Its something I'd love to have but not at that price.

2TB 960 Pro

Now add on the small Apple Tax they always put on storage upgrades and there you go.

TBH though, I'll wager a lot of the segment that would buy an iMac Pro over a real Mac Pro does not need that kind of speed and would be better served by getting 4TB of SATA SSD for that money by way of something like a 4TB 850 Evo. Call me an extremist, but two 2.5" slots would let you do up to 8TB of SSD, and then you could RAID them together and get 1100-1200MB/s. That's what I do with my 730s (albeit at much smaller capacity) in my Tiki.
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#26 Camper-Hunter

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 11:17 PM

The iMac Pro is such a dumb move. The Mac Pro 2013 didn't sell well because of severe lack of internal expandibility, but at least you can choose your display. Now, it's even worse because the display is built-in, and I'd be shocked if Apple at last abandons glossy displays (which would be a must for anything labeled "pro" IMHO).
Also, iMacs are notorious for display issues because of the components heat just behind the screen. Now components will generate even more heat. I'll not be the one who takes the gamble to check if the new cooling system is efficient enough for the long term.

#27 jeannot

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 11:51 PM

The iMac pro is not necessarily an alternative to the Mac Pro. Apple already said that a new Mac Pro was in the works.

#28 Thain Esh Kelch

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 12:24 AM

View PostCougar, on 05 June 2017 - 12:40 PM, said:

Best announcement: Black, Extended wireless Apple Keyboard. If that isn't sold separately I will murder a small kitten.
It won't be, they already officially stated this.

View PostRGoulder, on 05 June 2017 - 01:17 PM, said:

Oh look. They wrapped the empty carcass of the mac pro trash can with mesh to create a smart speaker, the HomePod. Apple is working hard to recycle those unused unsold mac pros. :rolleyes:
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#29 AussieMacGamer

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 01:59 AM

View PostSneaky Snake, on 05 June 2017 - 01:39 PM, said:

Go price out a system with 8 core Xeon, 32 GB ECC RAM, 10 Gb NIC, 11 Tflop GPU, and 5K display with P3 color display from Dell, HP, Lenovo, or any other manufacturer and I think you'll find the price is at least that high, if not substantially higher.

This is absolutely right. However I think the negative perception around it's price isn't helped by the fact that as a computing solution (having a screen),it's locked into a single form factor. No matter how good of a value proposition it might seem, it just doesn't suit a lot of customers needs.

View PostSneaky Snake, on 05 June 2017 - 02:11 PM, said:

It shows the Apple actually cares about the professional market who have very demanding computing needs.

I wrote about this two months ago, but I think what it shows is that Apple was going to kill off the Mac Pro entirely.
If Apple hadn't come clean about re-designing the Mac Pro, I feel like the sentiment would be overwhelmingly negative.

Will be interesting to see where the Mac Pro is positioned around this product. It seems abundantly clear to me that this product was already in the late stages when they decided to re-design the Mac Pro. IMO the iMac Pro sits kind of awkwardly now and will moreso when the Mac Pro is released.
It's no huge loss for Apple however, and I don't think it sends a confusing message to consumers.

View PostBifBologna, on 05 June 2017 - 03:44 PM, said:

Quick curiosity question about eGPU's from the terminally under informed...

Since Apple is planning on supporting eGPU's in the future and the majority of Apple's current lineup include a display of some sort, will it be possible to use an eGPU with the internal display of, say, an iMac?

I've been really keen on this concept for a while. From my understanding, there are currently several limitations. Primarily, while Thunderbolt already throttles the GPU to a small extent, this is made far worse when the display information needs to be piped back from the GPU, through thunderbolt, to the CPU, and then displayed on the internal display.

It performs well when the GPU is doing the Display output itself. If the iMac had target display mode then an EGPU could simply pipe back into another input and display on the screen using TDM. However Thunderbolt 3 doesn't support DP 1.4, so TBP wouldn't be able to be implemented on an iMac again unless Apple also put in a DisplayPort input... or worked out a way to do it through two thunderbolt ports... all of which they are unlikely to do.

So for now the long and short of it, no.

But Apple having showed not only support for it, but super keen interest, could help this situation along in the near future. As well, Intel's announcment that they will be abolishing royalty fees really opens the floodgates for affordable Thunderbolt accessories. The future is bright for the possibility of a Mac with an easily upgradable and affordable GPU.

EDIT: I'd actually hedge my bets that Apple already has some sort of workaround for this, It seems very un-Apple like to force customers to use an external display if they want to take advantage of this feature.

EDIT AGAIN: We should find out within a matter of days once these new computers and the dev preview get into the hands of tinkerers worldwide

EDIT AGAIN AGAIN: The macOS High Sierra eGPU devnotes state that it does not support the internal display

"The External Graphics Development Kit does not accelerate the internal display on iMac or MacBook Pro. "

Jury's still out on wether that means "cannot" or "doesn't yet" support the internal display. I'm sure we'll have an answer between now and High Sierra public debut.

P.S It works with thunderbolt 2

View PostCamper-Hunter, on 05 June 2017 - 11:17 PM, said:

The iMac Pro is such a dumb move. The Mac Pro 2013 didn't sell well because of severe lack of internal expandibility, but at least you can choose your display. Now, it's even worse because the display is built-in, and I'd be shocked if Apple at last abandons glossy displays (which would be a must for anything labeled "pro" IMHO).
Also, iMacs are notorious for display issues because of the components heat just behind the screen. Now components will generate even more heat. I'll not be the one who takes the gamble to check if the new cooling system is efficient enough for the long term.

...and here we have a clear example of how bad the fallout would've been had Apple not come clean about the new Mac Pro project.

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#30 RGoulder

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 08:41 AM

View PostAussieMacGamer, on 06 June 2017 - 01:59 AM, said:


EDIT AGAIN AGAIN: The macOS High Sierra eGPU devnotes state that it does not support the internal display

"The External Graphics Development Kit does not accelerate the internal display on iMac or MacBook Pro. "


And that throws a monkey wrench into my plans for a new mac. What is the point of buying a new iMac with its super duper screen of awesomeness if you then have to buy an external monitor in order to use an eGPU. Kind of wish they had announced an updated mac mini then, with a thunderbolt 3 port. At least with that I'd be buying the mac mini with the idea I'd need a monitor for it too. So it wouldn't matter much to me if it was plugged into the mac mini or the external graphics card enclosure.

So now its a problem of is the Radeon Pro 580 graphics card good enough to game on for a few years or is this Radeon Pro Vega 64 in the iMac Pro a better option?

#31 Sneaky Snake

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 09:11 AM

View PostRGoulder, on 06 June 2017 - 08:41 AM, said:

And that throws a monkey wrench into my plans for a new mac. What is the point of buying a new iMac with its super duper screen of awesomeness if you then have to buy an external monitor in order to use an eGPU. Kind of wish they had announced an updated mac mini then, with a thunderbolt 3 port. At least with that I'd be buying the mac mini with the idea I'd need a monitor for it too. So it wouldn't matter much to me if it was plugged into the mac mini or the external graphics card enclosure.

Not being able to use the internal screen is a result of the limitations of Thunderbolt 3. The port has 40 Gbps of bandwidth which sounds like a lot, but if you need to pipe all of your data to the eGPU, and then pipe it back to the internal screen, the added bandwidth of piping the data back to the internal display causes HUGE performance losses.

Look up reviews of eGPUs like the Razer Core. If they use the internal display you'll see massive performance losses compared to an external display (like literally half the performance).

In the future when we get more bandwidth from TB4 or 5 then it will no longer be an issue.

View PostRGoulder, on 06 June 2017 - 08:41 AM, said:

So now its a problem of is the Radeon Pro 580 graphics card good enough to game on for a few years or is this Radeon Pro Vega 64 in the iMac Pro a better option?

I have the RX 480 in my gaming desktop and it's a pretty capable card. You will be able to play nearly any game at max settings, 60 fps at 1080p resolution. Less demanding games like Overwatch I have running at a mix of medium and high settings at 4K resolution and still able to get 60 fps.

The Radeon Pro 580 will probably be a little bit faster than my card, so it will be very capable at running virtually every game great at 1080p for years to come. The 580 is roughly equivalent to the GTX 1060 from Nvidia.

The Vega card will be magnitudes faster though (like literally double the performance). It has a teraflop number equal to the GTX 1080 Ti, so you will likely be able to run many games at high/ultra settings at 4K resolution (maybe medium to high settings at 5K).
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#32 Irishman

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 10:05 AM

View PostCougar, on 05 June 2017 - 11:44 AM, said:

Holy popsnizzle, guys. Metal 2, SteamVR, discrete GPUs on iMacs, external GPUs (!).  Is it actually April fools??

Just when I abandon AAA gaming on the Mac.


That'll learn ya! :)

View PostCougar, on 05 June 2017 - 12:40 PM, said:

Best announcement: Black, Extended wireless Apple Keyboard. If that isn't sold separately I will murder a small kitten.


I wish that Apple (or someone) would do a wired version of it with mechanical keys. :)

Drool
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#33 Spike

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 10:07 AM

View PostAussieMacGamer, on 06 June 2017 - 01:59 AM, said:

EDIT AGAIN AGAIN: The macOS High Sierra eGPU devnotes state that it does not support the internal display

"The External Graphics Development Kit does not accelerate the internal display on iMac or MacBook Pro. "

Jury's still out on wether that means "cannot" or "doesn't yet" support the internal display. I'm sure we'll have an answer between now and High Sierra public debut.

Note that the devnotes say mirroring is not yet supported, and closed-clamshell is not yet supported, and then says does not accelerate the internal display. Things are always subject to change, but saying not yet supported on the other items implies that probably not going to support acceleration on internal displays. Piping all the rendering back is a performance penalty anyway.

#34 Jan

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 10:15 AM

Best WWDC in an eternity: New file system (finally!), Metal 2, VR, external GPUs (woohoo!), kick-ass iMac, new Mac Pro on the horizon. 599 $ for the Sonnet enclosure + RX 580 is reasonable, too. I'll order one of these. Nice one. :groupwave:
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#35 RGoulder

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 10:42 AM

View PostSneaky Snake, on 06 June 2017 - 09:11 AM, said:

Not being able to use the internal screen is a result of the limitations of Thunderbolt 3. The port has 40 Gbps of bandwidth which sounds like a lot, but if you need to pipe all of your data to the eGPU, and then pipe it back to the internal screen, the added bandwidth of piping the data back to the internal display causes HUGE performance losses.

Look up reviews of eGPUs like the Razer Core. If they use the internal display you'll see massive performance losses compared to an external display (like literally half the performance).

In the future when we get more bandwidth from TB4 or 5 then it will no longer be an issue.


Yeah I get the the limitations of thunderbolt its just an annoyance. And yeah as you said it'll get better with thunderbolt 4 and 5. Though I have some doubts about whether the problem will really be solved as new high resolution monitors and graphics cards are introduced that will continue to test the bandwidth limitations of each version of thunderbolt.

View PostSneaky Snake, on 06 June 2017 - 09:11 AM, said:

I have the RX 480 in my gaming desktop and it's a pretty capable card. You will be able to play nearly any game at max settings, 60 fps at 1080p resolution. Less demanding games like Overwatch I have running at a mix of medium and high settings at 4K resolution and still able to get 60 fps.

The Radeon Pro 580 will probably be a little bit faster than my card, so it will be very capable at running virtually every game great at 1080p for years to come. The 580 is roughly equivalent to the GTX 1060 from Nvidia.

The Vega card will be magnitudes faster though (like literally double the performance). It has a teraflop number equal to the GTX 1080 Ti, so you will likely be able to run many games at high/ultra settings at 4K resolution (maybe medium to high settings at 5K).

Thanks for the comparisons, very useful. It makes it a bit easier to understand where things stand.

As Apple has this habit of only comparing the performance of their new computers to the past models and saying its faster and better. Which, yeah of course it is silly, when you haven't released a new iMac in 500+ days anything you release now will be an upgrade but how does it perform in comparison to other computers or in this case graphic cards that have been released recently?

And since Nvidia has been King of graphics for quite some time its nice to see some comparison of AMD and Nvidia cards.

#36 Cougar

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 11:20 AM

I'm currently watching the WWDC state of the union. The next release after High Sierra will start giving warnings for 32 bit apps, and they'll stop being supported entirely after that.

How many games will be impacted by this? Heck, Steam is still 32-bit. (But I expect the new redesign later this year will be a total rewrite.)

Quote

I wish that Apple (or someone) would do a wired version of it with mechanical keys. :)

Drool

No more wires for Apple: they just stopped selling the current wired extended keyboard. But at least the Magic Keyboard works fine plugged in (it's just kind of a waste of $$). This is how I'd use the space grey keyboard, should Apple change their mind about not selling it separately... :glare:

#37 Camper-Hunter

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 12:47 PM

View PostIrishman, on 06 June 2017 - 10:05 AM, said:

I wish that Apple (or someone) would do a wired version of it with mechanical keys. :)

What's so special about this keyboard? Anyways, there are loads of black or grey mechanical keyboards already.

#38 Cougar

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 01:08 PM

View PostCamper-Hunter, on 06 June 2017 - 12:47 PM, said:

What's so special about this keyboard? Anyways, there are loads of black or grey mechanical keyboards already.

Nothing, except it looks awesome. It's a black magic keyboard, which I already like, and it best aesthetically matches my MBP's.

#39 RGoulder

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 01:23 PM

View PostCougar, on 06 June 2017 - 11:20 AM, said:

I'm currently watching the WWDC state of the union. The next release after High Sierra will start giving warnings for 32 bit apps, and they'll stop being supported entirely after that.

How many games will be impacted by this? Heck, Steam is still 32-bit. (But I expect the new redesign later this year will be a total rewrite.)


Really Apple? I get encouraging developers to move to 64 bit. But, I have a lot of games where this move will be serious problem. Even some released rather recently like Stellaris; it isn't 64 bit and won't be as its based on the Crusader Kings 2 engine.

Its a ways out so not an immediate problem but I'm going to miss all those games in the years to come.

#40 mattw

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 01:39 PM

View PostRGoulder, on 06 June 2017 - 01:23 PM, said:

Really Apple? I get encouraging developers to move to 64 bit. But, I have a lot of games where this move will be serious problem. Even some released rather recently like Stellaris; it isn't 64 bit and won't be as its based on the Crusader Kings 2 engine.

Its a ways out so not an immediate problem but I'm going to miss all those games in the years to come.

It has been a lot better for the last few OS X/MacOS releases so I hoped it was getting better but in the back of my mind I was thinking OpenGL would get removed at some point killing all my "old" Mac games, kinda like classic when OS X arrived and PowerPC titles when Rosetta was removed.

Most stuff I wanted to keep a copy of I did end up getting working in WINE with PC versions, but I can see the same thing happening with many games I run natively now - it will either be WINE or a VM needed.

It's also why I look out for SteamPlay and GOG versions rather than Mac App Store as you have half a chance finding a way to run it later - especially as until the recent announcement of an upgradable Mac Pro coming eventually it looked like I'd have to really look at accepting owning and maintaining a Linux or Windows machine at home.

I always thought the disposable gaming idea was more of a console than computer thing but I guess not.
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