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#1 Steve Ballmer

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 06:15 PM

The Disaster Called Startrek Discovery

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Where do I start?

OK, Klingons!

ghob’e’ Qu’ Hoch ‘e’ naQ tIq HoS je

I tried to be open minded here but the timeline is wrong, technology is wrong, sets are wrong, acting is flat, plots are tortured, …… the Klingons are not Klingons!

Who came up with this stuff? Kilngons are passionate, extreme, wild-eyed! The Kilngons on Discovery are mask, that’s it.

I tried to like this show but I HATE it! The writers should be fed to my pitakh!

It actually makes me like The Orville.

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#2 macdude22

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 06:22 PM

The Orville is great! Anyone who discounts it because “Seth McFarlane” is doing themselves a serious disservice. STD (lololololololol) is a passable Battlestar Galactica clone but it is a terrible Star Trek. Worse than Voyager, and that’s saying something.

Skip STD, grab a hulu 7 day trial, and binge the pure joy that is The Orville.

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#3 Thain Esh Kelch

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 01:20 AM

I do think the sets are great. ... But the technology presented is wrong. The timeline is wrong. The klingons are wrong. The plotline is stupid. The acting is great but several of the characters are so awful.

Star Trek has always taken things lightly to tell a story, but what they have done to the Klingons and how they have turned the technology dial 300 years ahead, is inexcusable for me. I won't be watching season 2 most likely.

And Voyager was awesome!! (Except for the ending episode, that was waaaaaaay to short - And Harry "Boring, but apparently sexy?" Kim)
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#4 Tetsuya

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 01:29 AM

I agree with The Orville being far better than people are giving it credit for.  Its actually a pretty decent homage to Trek.  

Discovery is an utter disgrace on every level.  Its worse than the Action-Sci-Fi movies bearing the Trek name.  (One of which is a good movie, just not a good Trek movie).  

Voyager...

Having watched through most of the series recently (its on BBC America right now which i often have on in the background)... its actually not very bad.  There is a major issue with the premise of WHY they stayed in the Delta Quadrant to begin with; Chakotay is a terrible character through no fault of Robert Beltran (the "Native American" expert they hired to write him was literaly a con-man, and Beltran hated it and kept trying to get himself fired), and There are 2 runs of episodes (part of Season 1, and a decent chunk of Season 2) that are just really, really bad.  Not just as Trek, but as a TV show.  (Writers Strike around that time).  

Otherwise.. though.  Its really not that bad.  It got a lot of bad press from Trek fans who had become enamored of DS9, because it was more of a throwback to ToS than anything since, but from Season 3 on, it wasn't too bad at all, and actually got quite good around the middle of Season 4.  As good as any of TNG anyway, and as good as the average/below average episodes of DS9.  

Janeway and Chakotay also got WAY better when (sometime in late Season 3/early Season 4) Kate Mulgrew  basically said that she was going to start writing arcs for her character and making her make more sense or they could fire her, and then went to bat for Beltran in the same way (give him creative latitude with Chakotay, or you can fire us both).  Youll notice around that time that Chakotay got more believably spiritual and less native-American-caricature (because Beltran was a spiritualist but wasn't raised in the native culture), became way less stiff, and started to have better character arcs.

Same with Janeway.  Her decision-making got a lot more consistent (in Seasons 1 and 2 she rubberbanded depending on who was writing), and they started to develop her character a lot more (dealing with her knowledge that her not-husband had moved on, being lonely, the Holodeck program with DaVinci (entirely written by Mulgrew) that featured in a lot of episodes afterwards (with the excellent John Rhys Davies as DaVinci).  

And even with the problems those two had... Voyager had three of the best Star Trek characters.  A lot of people still look to Nimoy for how Vulcans should act, but ... Tim Russ is my man.  Tuvok was an amazing character.  Not only did he have more episodes and seasons to develop, but i think he did a better job of being a Vulcan as described by Spock, who was, at his own admission, only half Vulcan.  

The Doctor was also an amazing character - not just a Data re-tread, but given a life of his own by Picardo.  (Who also threatened to quit unless they got him out of Sickbay).  Sometimes his arcs were silly, but some of the very best character-driven arcs in Star Trek were based around The Doctor (the episode where he cant deal with the fact that he had to let a crew member die?  SO GOOD.)  

And.. Neelix is probably the most undervalued character ever.  Really pay attention to him sometime.  He seems like a fool... but he isn't.  That crew would have died without him.  And his send-off was excellent.  

Now, im not saying Voyager was amazing or the best Trek show ever (because that is obviously DS9, and if you believe otherwise, it will be pistols at dawn), but it isn't nearly as bad as people remember.  

Its worth a re-watch.

Sorry for the info dump.  But i fell down a wiki-hole at Memory-Alpha.

#5 ipickert55

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 01:47 AM

View PostTetsuya, on 09 January 2018 - 01:29 AM, said:

Discovery is an utter disgrace on every level.  Its worse than the Action-Sci-Fi movies bearing the Trek name.  (One of which is a good movie, just not a good Trek movie).  

The 2009 Star Trek is one of my favorite movies of all time. It's a blast to watch every single time. I can't really say why but it just seems to hit all the beats for me.

Into Darkness was awful though, and Beyond was so cookie cutter (though the sabotage moment was friggin awesome).
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#6 Janichsan

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 03:44 AM

I don't have a final verdict for Discovery yet, as we are still only half-way through the first season and pretty much all Trek shows before took up to two seasons before they found themselves (others never did – I'm looking at you, Enterprise…). But the first half wasn't really good and could mostly summarised with "unlikeable characters making stupid decisions while arguing with each other". Only among the last few episodes before the mid-season finale there were some that actually began to feel like Star Trek, and where they managed to flesh out the characters. But even these episodes weren't really well written and full of plot holes.

Rainn Wilson as Harry Mudd was great, though, but unfortunately directly connected to two of the most infuriating moments in the show so far. In addition, this cynical, spineless and opportunistic version of the character had nothing in common with the Harry Mudd known from TOS.

The Klingon redesign in STD is absolutely atrocious: stiff costumes that obviously hinder the actors' movements, thick make up that makes it impossible to enunciate or emote, a design that has nothing to do with the classic look – what exactly where they trying to achieve there?

Regarding Voyager, I would say it's a show of missed opportunities. Just think of all the things they could have done with the premise. A Starfleet ship alone and far from home, trying to survive in a hostile and unknown environment? A crew cobbled together from two opposing factions? So much potential, only to be squandered to make just another Anomaly of the Week series slathered with the thickest technobabble of any Trek show so far. And they absolutely managed to make the Borg uninteresting by overusing them.

I agree that they had some great characters with the Doctor, Tuvok, and occasionally even Seven of Nine, when the writers remembered that she had a bit more potential than just being the bimbo in the tight catsuit spewing more technobabble. Chakotay, however, never became interesting. He always remained a flat, boring, one-note character that was allowed to give forth some spiritualistic platitudes from time to time. Even Robert Beltran was bored and unsatisfied by him.

As for the Orville, I would say that a lot of its appeal and success comes mainly from the show scratching a nostalgic itch. They are emulating 1990's The Next Generation in great detail, from the (slightly mixed up) cast of characters, to the set and costume design, the music, the lighting, the camera angles, the directing, and the writing. Only the special effects are more up to date, but even those often are made to look like TNG's. The Orville character's are almost uniformly one-note, and the humour falls flat (for me) and is often incongruous.

However, it still manages to do Trek better than the current official Trek. For one, it hits the typical Trek tone much better than Discovery (or the recent Trek movies). Secondly – and surprisingly –, the Orville is actually good science fiction. They do what good sci-fi is supposed to do, by handling current societal topics, extrapolating recent trends, and posing interesting philosophical "what-if" questions, even if their scripts aren't always very novel (for instance, the idea of a society on a generation ship as in "If the Stars Should Appear" has been done time and time again).

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#7 Thain Esh Kelch

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 03:47 AM

Into Darkness was better in my opinion. Mostly because those three movies weren't Star Trek, but AAA action movies.

I've decided the next thing I will be binge watching is Lost, as I only got through season 3 back in the days, and actually really liked it. After that, I will take on DS9. It's the only piece of Star Trek I haven't watched, surprisingly (It never aired on my local tv channels back when I was young, so I haven't gotten any personal attachment to it).

My personal series list: TNG > Voyager > Enterprise > TOS > > > > > > Discovery
As for the movies: II > VII > VIII > IX > 2 > X > I > 1 > IV > 3  --- And I can't really remember III, V and VI enough to rate them. I will have to watch them again soon, although I don't recall them as being spectacular, but with some excellent scenes here and there though.
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#8 ipickert55

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 04:26 AM

View PostThain Esh Kelch, on 09 January 2018 - 03:47 AM, said:

Into Darkness was better in my opinion. Mostly because those three movies weren't Star Trek, but AAA action movies.

I thought it was okay in theaters, watched it at home and it was just bleh. Spock somehow reverted to being an emotionless husk despite being an alright guy at the end of the first one, the blonde admirals daughter literally served no purpose, and Benedict Cumberbatch's performance was brutal at times.

Even as AAA action movies, I thought the 2009 was far better because of how well put together it was. The other two just felt so messy and chaotic.

Sorry for hijacking this thread btw, I haven't watched discovery yet :P
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#9 Steve Ballmer

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 08:15 AM

View Postmacdude22, on 08 January 2018 - 06:22 PM, said:

The Orville is great! Anyone who discounts it because “Seth McFarlane” is doing themselves a serious disservice. STD (lololololololol) is a passable Battlestar Galactica clone but it is a terrible Star Trek. Worse than Voyager, and that’s saying something.

Skip STD, grab a hulu 7 day trial, and binge the pure joy that is The Orville.

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View PostThain Esh Kelch, on 09 January 2018 - 01:20 AM, said:

I do think the sets are great. ... But the technology presented is wrong. The timeline is wrong. The klingons are wrong. The plotline is stupid. The acting is great but several of the characters are so awful.

Star Trek has always taken things lightly to tell a story, but what they have done to the Klingons and how they have turned the technology dial 300 years ahead, is inexcusable for me. I won't be watching season 2 most likely.

And Voyager was awesome!! (Except for the ending episode, that was waaaaaaay to short - And Harry "Boring, but apparently sexy?" Kim)
I actually had a thing for Janeway! Still do

View PostTetsuya, on 09 January 2018 - 01:29 AM, said:

I agree with The Orville being far better than people are giving it credit for.  Its actually a pretty decent homage to Trek.  

Discovery is an utter disgrace on every level.  Its worse than the Action-Sci-Fi movies bearing the Trek name.  (One of which is a good movie, just not a good Trek movie).  

Voyager...

Having watched through most of the series recently (its on BBC America right now which i often have on in the background)... its actually not very bad.  There is a major issue with the premise of WHY they stayed in the Delta Quadrant to begin with; Chakotay is a terrible character through no fault of Robert Beltran (the "Native American" expert they hired to write him was literaly a con-man, and Beltran hated it and kept trying to get himself fired), and There are 2 runs of episodes (part of Season 1, and a decent chunk of Season 2) that are just really, really bad.  Not just as Trek, but as a TV show.  (Writers Strike around that time).  

Otherwise.. though.  Its really not that bad.  It got a lot of bad press from Trek fans who had become enamored of DS9, because it was more of a throwback to ToS than anything since, but from Season 3 on, it wasn't too bad at all, and actually got quite good around the middle of Season 4.  As good as any of TNG anyway, and as good as the average/below average episodes of DS9.  

Janeway and Chakotay also got WAY better when (sometime in late Season 3/early Season 4) Kate Mulgrew  basically said that she was going to start writing arcs for her character and making her make more sense or they could fire her, and then went to bat for Beltran in the same way (give him creative latitude with Chakotay, or you can fire us both).  Youll notice around that time that Chakotay got more believably spiritual and less native-American-caricature (because Beltran was a spiritualist but wasn't raised in the native culture), became way less stiff, and started to have better character arcs.

Same with Janeway.  Her decision-making got a lot more consistent (in Seasons 1 and 2 she rubberbanded depending on who was writing), and they started to develop her character a lot more (dealing with her knowledge that her not-husband had moved on, being lonely, the Holodeck program with DaVinci (entirely written by Mulgrew) that featured in a lot of episodes afterwards (with the excellent John Rhys Davies as DaVinci).  

And even with the problems those two had... Voyager had three of the best Star Trek characters.  A lot of people still look to Nimoy for how Vulcans should act, but ... Tim Russ is my man.  Tuvok was an amazing character.  Not only did he have more episodes and seasons to develop, but i think he did a better job of being a Vulcan as described by Spock, who was, at his own admission, only half Vulcan.  

The Doctor was also an amazing character - not just a Data re-tread, but given a life of his own by Picardo.  (Who also threatened to quit unless they got him out of Sickbay).  Sometimes his arcs were silly, but some of the very best character-driven arcs in Star Trek were based around The Doctor (the episode where he cant deal with the fact that he had to let a crew member die?  SO GOOD.)  

And.. Neelix is probably the most undervalued character ever.  Really pay attention to him sometime.  He seems like a fool... but he isn't.  That crew would have died without him.  And his send-off was excellent.  

Now, im not saying Voyager was amazing or the best Trek show ever (because that is obviously DS9, and if you believe otherwise, it will be pistols at dawn), but it isn't nearly as bad as people remember.  

Its worth a re-watch.

Sorry for the info dump.  But i fell down a wiki-hole at Memory-Alpha.
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#10 Steve Ballmer

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 09:28 AM

View Postipickert55, on 09 January 2018 - 04:26 AM, said:

I thought it was okay in theaters, watched it at home and it was just bleh. Spock somehow reverted to being an emotionless husk despite being an alright guy at the end of the first one, the blonde admirals daughter literally served no purpose, and Benedict Cumberbatch's performance was brutal at times.

Even as AAA action movies, I thought the 2009 was far better because of how well put together it was. The other two just felt so messy and chaotic.

Sorry for hijacking this thread btw, I haven't watched discovery yet :P
If you like being frustrated, watch Discovery.
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#11 macdude22

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 09:36 AM

If you like being delighted watch The Orville.
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#12 the Battle Cat

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 10:31 AM

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#13 Janichsan

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 11:37 AM

View Postthe Battle Cat, on 09 January 2018 - 10:31 AM, said:

If you like being culturally appropriated, watch me do the dance of your people.
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#14 Thain Esh Kelch

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 01:46 PM

View Postipickert55, on 09 January 2018 - 04:26 AM, said:

the blonde admirals daughter literally served no purpose,
Perhaps, but she was freaking hot! :P

Quote

and Benedict Cumberbatch's performance was brutal at times.
I actually thought he was amazing in that one. My favorite role of his.

Quote

Even as AAA action movies, I thought the 2009 was far better because of how well put together it was. The other two just felt so messy and chaotic.
Maybe you didn't like the second one, because the first one made you blind with all the lens flares (721 of them no less!), and then when you watched the sequel, and you got so annoyed as there were even more (826!).. :P

Quote

Sorry for hijacking this thread btw, I haven't watched discovery yet :P
Normally I would say "Star Trek! Go watch it!", but in this case.. Don't rush into it. You *will* be dissapointed.  There's several good things in it, but they also raped Star Trek, soooo.... Not Star Trek.
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#15 the Battle Cat

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 02:40 PM

Obviously this spin-off disaster must be a problem in the timeline.  Star Fleet should send the Enterprise back in time via a slingshot around the sun to make things right again.  I'm certain all this all stems from seeding the future oceans with whales from the past.  We had finally gotten rid of the damn things and some plastic-banana feel-good hand-wringing Admiral decides to frak up Earth's future rather than blow the stupid threatening space whale tube thingy into Fancy Feast.  Hopefully they can go back in time to pith that Admiral like a lab frog.  Oh wait, that was Kirk.  Frak.  

View PostJanichsan, on 09 January 2018 - 11:37 AM, said:

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#16 Cougar

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 03:00 PM

Wow, I am really surprised at all the Discovery hate. I'm really enjoying it. I love that it's finally procedural, the Klingons actually look alien, and freaking Jason Isaacs is in it. Sure, it's far removed from Roddenberry's utopian vision, (and I think we could use fewer dystopias in our TV right now) but so was DS9. The thing I hate most about it is that it tries to be too nostalgic. The new Mudd was nothing like the old Mudd, so why not just create a new character?

The Orville started out bad but it's getting better. It's Next Gen with jokes. I like it, but I am glad that Discovery is trying to be different.

For the record, my favorite Trek is TOS and if I had to rank them, It would probably go something like TOS, DS9, Next Gen, Voy, ENT. I recently watched Next Gen and Voyager for the first time and I must say, Discovery blows their first seasons out of the water. The only Star Trek that had a decent first season was TOS. So I hope you don't give up on it.

Movies: ST II, ST VI, ST IV are the only one I really like, though I haven't seen Insurrection. The new movies don't exist as far as I'm concerned.

#17 ipickert55

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 08:06 PM

View PostThain Esh Kelch, on 09 January 2018 - 01:46 PM, said:

Normally I would say "Star Trek! Go watch it!", but in this case.. Don't rush into it. You *will* be dissapointed.  There's several good things in it, but they also raped Star Trek, soooo.... Not Star Trek.

I'll probably still give it a shot, because yeah its star trek. I didnt like the last jedi but it's still star wars so there are parts that I love you know?
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#18 G_Player

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 02:49 AM

Galaxy Quest was the best parody of Star Trek TOS.
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#19 Thain Esh Kelch

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 05:21 AM

View Postipickert55, on 09 January 2018 - 08:06 PM, said:

I'll probably still give it a shot, because yeah its star trek. I didnt like the last jedi but it's still star wars so there are parts that I love you know?
I actually kind of liked the first episode due to the updated look and it being an episode about exploration, since I tried to overlook the new Klingons. But then they started introducing more and more incredibly annoying characters, and gave them insta-whereveryouwanttogointhegalaxy-drive, and then I puked.
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#20 DirtyHarry50

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 09:14 AM

I stopped caring after Star Trek The Next Generation. The one exception for me was the recent movie with a new young Spock and Kirk which I forget the name of but I thought it was well done and I enjoyed it. I still havenít seen the follow up to that yet but I want to at some point.
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