104 replies to this topic

[Cougar]

What are everyone's thoughts on 10.14? I'll get the joke out of the way: It's Mojave because the features are as  sparse as a desert.

I skipped 10.13 due to the bugs, but 10.14 actually has things I want, so I hope it is solid. I wasn't sure if I'd want a dark mode, but it looks sexy as hell. They have tackled a lot of low-hanging fruit: HomeKit support, archaic app store, etc. The privacy features are important. And everyone's favorite feature, Cover Flow, lives again!*

It's a bit strange that it doesn't seem that they brought over the new Siri automation and notifications changes from iOS 12, though. No word about Messages using UIKit (so we finally have everyone's favorite feature, screen effects.)

And why doesn't iOS 12 have a dark mode? It seems we are always perpetually out-of-sync one way or the other in respect to features.

Anyway, I got real worried at 1:20 and the word "Mac" had yet to be uttered, but I am mildly placated.

*Seriously though if they bring this back to Safari I will be ecstatic. That's the one place where it was useful.

Edit: Oh snap - Deprecated OpenGL: https://twitter.com/...7976705/photo/1

I wonder how long OpenGL apps will continue to work.

[Spike]

10.14 looks alright, but nothing extraordinary. Comparing to 10.13 for me.

Like about 10.13:
- egpu support that I cant use yet

Bad about 10.13:
- slower performance
- less stability
- worse UI changes

Like about 10.14:
- New Mac App Store
- dark mode
- new privacy features

What I dislike about 10.14:
- all the new Finder abilities (that only purpose is so dont have to run an applicatio
- that Finder desktop cleanup thing messing up my desktop
- never used Facetime since its Apple proprietary
- never would use those iOS apps they brought to Mac


iOS12 on the other hand only had the first feature of performance that I like. The rest I dont want and I especially hate what they showed on the notification changes.

[Cougar]

Spike, on 04 June 2018 - 03:01 PM, said:

- that Finder desktop cleanup thing messing up my desktop

iOS12 on the other hand only had the first feature of performance that I like. The rest I dont want and I especially hate what they showed on the notification changes.

I think this was smart. I was an Apple tech in college. You'd be surprised how many professors would just drop so many files on the desktop, so much so that the wallpaper would be completely obscured. A lot of people use the desktop this way. For the rest of us, we can turn the feature off.

Quote

iOS12 on the other hand only had the first feature of performance that I like. The rest I dont want and I especially hate what they showed on the notification changes.

Are you talking about the grouped notifications? They're just bringing that back from iOS 6. I imagine it'll be optional like that was.

[devSin]

Deprecating OpenGL (and OpenCL) is definitely going to have a big impact on games.

Luckily, most of them were gong to break anyway when they dropped support for 32-bit, but it puts another firm shelf life on many games.

It had to happen, of course, but it's sad to lose some of the games that will likely never be updated (we may not even be able to play Diablo III on macOS in a couple years).

[Spike]

Cougar, on 04 June 2018 - 03:12 PM, said:

Are you talking about the grouped notifications? They're just bringing that back from iOS 6. I imagine it'll be optional like that was.

No, I was referring to the whole thing about people checking their notifications from sleep and seeing too many - so now it doesnt show them. In their example I remember it instead showing weather and saying good morning or something like that.

devSin, Apple deprecated OpenGL so many years ago. Deprecated doesnt mean removing, just not going to be updated.

[Cougar]

Spike, on 04 June 2018 - 03:36 PM, said:

No, I was referring to the whole thing about people checking their notifications from sleep and seeing too many - so now it doesnt show them. In their example I remember it instead showing weather and saying good morning or something like that.

Another optional feature. I won't be using it either.

Spike, on 04 June 2018 - 03:36 PM, said:

devSin, Apple deprecated OpenGL so many years ago. Deprecated doesnt mean removing, just not going to be updated.

I asked Brad Oliver this on Twitter, and he said this likely means OpenGL games will stop working eventually (but the 32-bit transition will hit first.)

[Spike]

Cougar, on 04 June 2018 - 04:02 PM, said:

I asked Brad Oliver this on Twitter, and he said this likely means OpenGL games will stop working eventually (but the 32-bit transition will hit first.)

I disagree, at least in the next decade.

[Cougar]

Spike, on 04 June 2018 - 04:19 PM, said:

I disagree, at least in the next decade.

They just stated in the state of the union that it's a "first step" before full depreciation. iOS 12 too.

[macdude22]

the 10.14 SDK no longer supports compiling 32-bit applications. I would be pleasantly surprised if 10.15 doesn't plant the final nail. Apple has gotten quicker about moving from deprecation to complete removal of apis and frameworks. I would not be suprised if 10.15 doesn't also toss off OpenGL but I think realistically it will be 10.16. There are a lot of scientific applications that rely on OpenGL yet.

[jos]

I often use the Apple Feedback site to request new features. Funny thing is, yesterday I told them it'd be great if the Mac App Store would include videos. It's especially useful for games, because videos are so much better at showing of gameplay than just screenshots. Less than 24 hours after my feature request they already showed of their new Mac App Store with videos. Apple is really quick at implementing new features these days.

One of the things I've always liked about macOS, OS X and whatever names they've used over the years is how little it changes with every single iteration. If you've used a version like Snow Leopard and then didn't use any computers for several years (going to prison or whatever) you'd still immediately feel at home with the latest version of macOS. Compare this to all of those complete overhauls of Windows.

So, videos in the Mac App Store, 32-bit apps are still supported and everything still has the look and feel of macOS that we've been using for years now... To me an excellent update.

[devSin]

Spike, on 04 June 2018 - 03:36 PM, said:

devSin, Apple deprecated OpenGL so many years ago. Deprecated doesnt mean removing, just not going to be updated.

AFAIK, this is the first time Apple has officially communicated that OpenGL is dead and will be removed entirely in a future release (which is what the official deprecation notice implies).

I was a little surprised that Apple decided to officially "bless" nonstandard GPUs and continue supporting the Mac Pro 5,1. I wonder if there'll be expanded support for non-EFI GPUs (seriously doubt it, but I also think it would be folly to continue insisting on special GPUs for the new Mac Pro).

[Janichsan]

devSin, on 04 June 2018 - 06:48 PM, said:

AFAIK, this is the first time Apple has officially communicated that OpenGL is dead and will be removed entirely in a future release (which is what the official deprecation notice implies).

It is in fact the first time. And you are correct, deprecation means more than this feature is no longer updated, it is essentially a note that it is marked for demolition.

That does not necessarily mean this will happen anytime soon, though. Carbon is deprecated since 2012, but it still works and most likely will continue to work until the 64 bit apocalypse hits.

The eventual removal of OpenGL is at least as big an issue as the end of the support for 32 bit apps, if not more so. It will be a significant blow for the scientific community, as like Macdude mentioned, many scientific applications rely on it. Almost all of these are cross-platform applications and have no chance in hell to be updated to Apple's proprietary Metal. Especially for UNIX based programs, OpenGL is the only available 3D API, and removal of that would break them for good.

[Spike]

I dont see a difference of official announcement of deprecation and reality, but not important. The point was it does not signify that removal is imminent.

Apple exact stance on what deprecation means as listed on their developer site:

Quote

Deprecations and Removed APIs

Periodically, Apple adds deprecation macros to APIs to indicate that those APIs should no longer be used in active development. When a deprecation occurs, it’s not an immediate end of life for the specified API. Instead, it is the beginning of a grace period for transitioning from that API and to newer and more modern replacements. Deprecated APIs typically remain present and usable in the system for a reasonable time past the release in which they were deprecated. However, active development on them ceases, and the APIs receive only minor changes to accommodate security patches or to fix other critical bugs. Deprecated APIs may be removed entirely from a future version of the operating system.

As a developer, avoid using deprecated APIs in your code as soon as possible. At a minimum, new code you write should never use deprecated APIs. And if your existing code uses deprecated APIs, update that code as soon as possible.

Note that it does not signify it will be removed, only that it may be removed in the future.
Although nothing lasts forever and everything eventually does go away, removing OpenGL anytime in the next few years would be too devastating and so I dont see it happening. The only thing I do see now is with Apple threatening, then more developers will leave the Mac platform.

[Janichsan]

Spike, on 05 June 2018 - 10:17 AM, said:

Note that it does not signify it will be removed, only that it may be removed in the future.

I can't think of a single deprecated feature that ultimately has not been removed. Even the example for a deprecated feature not yet fully removed I mentioned earlier – Carbon – is living on borrowed time and will eventually go away with macOS 10.15.

[macdude22]

Remember OpenTransport. Deprecated in 10.4, everyone was happy to keep chugging along with it in deprecated status. 10.9 comes along and actually removes it. THE HORROR.

With Apple's recent update iterative update mantra I would not expect to get 5 OS updates out of newly deprecated frameworks.

[jeannot]

Janichsan, on 05 June 2018 - 11:26 AM, said:

I can't think of a single deprecated feature that ultimately has not been removed. Even the example for a deprecated feature not yet fully removed I mentioned earlier – Carbon – is living on borrowed time and will eventually go away with macOS 10.15.

On the other hand, some quickdraw APIs have been flagged as deprecated for years, so has quicktime.

[Spike]

Janichsan, on 05 June 2018 - 11:26 AM, said:

I can't think of a single deprecated feature that ultimately has not been removed. Even the example for a deprecated feature not yet fully removed I mentioned earlier – Carbon – is living on borrowed time and will eventually go away with macOS 10.15.

Everything will get removed. At some point OpenGL will get removed, at some point (much later) Metal will get removed, at some point (much later) OS X will no longer be around.

This is not like 32 bit being announced that it is being removed. Announcing being deprecated (as opposed to the state that it has been in) is not announcing its impending removal - that is in the foreseeable "soon" future" that would have any meaning.

People are under the impression that Apple is signifying OpenGL will be removed in the soon future of a couple years like 32-bit, and I am saying it does not. Although it can have the interpretation of the first step in doing so, like I said, it would be too devastating and so am not worried that Apple will remove in the soon future that has meaning (which I think at minimum if everything went right and the vast majority of software changed and no longer used OpenGL for at least 4 years, would be at least be 8 years away if ever).

[Cougar]

If you want to see exactly what they said about it, go to 1:10:07 here: https://developer.ap...y/wwdc2018/102/

"OpenGL will still work in these releases, but deprecation is a first step as we wind down these technologies." They are literally saying it's the first step to full deprecation.

We'll have to wait for the "more details in the near future," but I do think Spike is half correct: it'll be longer than the 32-bit transition, but less than 8 years.

[Camper-Hunter]

jos, on 04 June 2018 - 05:33 PM, said:

One of the things I've always liked about macOS, OS X and whatever names they've used over the years is how little it changes with every single iteration. If you've used a version like Snow Leopard and then didn't use any computers for several years (going to prison or whatever) you'd still immediately feel at home with the latest version of macOS. Compare this to all of those complete overhauls of Windows.

I disagree. Things like the "natural" scrolling now activated by default in macOS which makes absolutely no sense with a mouse, for instance, and is really disorienting. The disappearing scroll bars by default, same thing. Thankfully all this non sense can be turned off, in order to revert to a time when macOS didn't tried to look like a tablet.
Whereas the GUI of Windows (except the Windows 8 industrial accident, which was a huge mess, to be honest) remained stable.

[Frost]

In all this, I am mainly happy that the Best Damn MacBook Pro Ever made the cut again after the big dump of older Macs. Iridium lives on! If it's survived this cull, it's likely still good for another couple years at least. I'll probably finish what's left of consolidating all of my business tasks onto this one machine and budget for swapping out the 2TB 850 Pro for a 4TB 860 Pro soon. That's my only real problem with this machine is I need more capacity. I haven't yet moved all my data over from Cypher, my finally-decommissioned PowerMac G5, and that would let me do that. That'll tide me over till maybe future MacBook Pros can hold 4TB and have real keyboards again.

Looks like my parents are getting dumped by Mojave soon though (unsurprisingly, a 2010 Mac mini and Late 2011 MacBook Pro are ancient at this point). I expect I'll be getting upgrade questions later this year.