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#81 Homy

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Posted 16 August 2021 - 10:08 AM

View PostTetsuya, on 15 August 2021 - 04:56 PM, said:

Keep in mind this is on a 55" 4K TV (Vizio D series).  

4k native looks great, obviously.  Even my 3080 struggles to consistently hit 60fps at 4K in very modern games (at High/Ultra)

1440p scaled still looks good, but a bit blurry, like the textures are a little smeary.  It still looks good.  
Setting the GPU to do the scaling instead (so the GPU does the scaling to 1440p instead of whatever processing is done by the TV) in the nVidia control panel was sharper, but still obviously scaled.  (This is not the same as setting the in-game render scale, which renders the image at X resolution then inflates it to the native res, which was universally the worst looking of the options in the games i tested).  Wont be available in MacOs though.  

1080p scaled looked "sharper", as in not so smeary, but obviously aliased and blocky because of the 4 to 1 pixel ratio involved, but this woukd likely b a lot less noticeable on a ~30ish inch monitor vs a 55" TV, especially if you have the horsepower to crank up the Anti-aliasing.  

If i had to choose, id go with 1440p scaled because the slightly blurred textures are entirely forgettable after a few mintes, whereas the obviously chunky bits at 1080p scaling were more consistently noticeable to me. YMMV.

Edit: FWIW, a good ultrawide 1440p (3440x1440) monitor might be more suitable for you.  You get extra screen real estate for photo work, and you can simply run games at 16:9 1440p natively (youll just get black bars on the sides, like letterboxing) with no scaling, if you dont have the GPU muscle to run them 21:9 (or the game doesnt support it).  But its more likely youll be able to run UW 1440p than 4k as it is still an order of magnitude easier on a GPU than 4k.  (Just shy of 5 million pixels at UW 1440p vs 8.2 million for "4K"/UHD)

Many thanks! I'm not sure if I'm ready för ultrawide curved monitors. I know there are some uncurved too but most of them are 32"-34" and you have to move your head too much I imagine. I'm leaning to your conclusion about scaled 1440p being better than 1080p. With a 4K monitor I have all three resolutions of 1080, scaled 1440 and 3840. I also think unscaled 1080p at high-ultra on 4K would look better than upscaled 1080p on 2K. I still need to do some tests in a store. :)

#82 Tetsuya

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Posted 16 August 2021 - 10:37 AM

.. i never said curved.  most UWQHD monitors im aware of are straight.  And at 34 being the average, they are no wider than your average 4k display (which start at 32 usually).

#83 Homy

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Posted 16 August 2021 - 10:40 AM

View PostTetsuya, on 16 August 2021 - 10:37 AM, said:

.. i never said curved.  most UWQHD monitors im aware of are straight.  And at 34" being the average, they are no wider than your average 4k display (which start at 32" usually).

No you didn't but as I said most of them here in Sweden are curved or are large. There is actually no 27" 3440 x1440 as far as I can see.

#84 Tetsuya

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Posted 16 August 2021 - 12:21 PM

View PostHomy, on 16 August 2021 - 10:40 AM, said:



No you didn't but as I said most of them here in Sweden are curved or are large. There is actually no 27" 3440 x1440 as far as I can see.

Nor are there affordable 27 4k displays.  Youre looking at 30+ no matter what.

#85 Tetsuya

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Posted 16 August 2021 - 12:57 PM

I went to PCPartpicker just to check, and yeah, there isnt anything in the sub 30 range in 4k youre going to want to use for photo work.  All the 27 or 28 4K panels are kinda junky with bad color reproduction (half are TN panels... /slashwrists).  Even the IPS panels are bargain basement displays.  Youre looking at a 32 (31.5) to get anything decent for photo work.  Difference in size is negligible between a 16:9 32 and a 21:9 34 its.. somewhat ironically almost dead on the 2 nominal size difference (about 2 wider).  

This Samsung has a better quality panel (color-wise) than all the cheap small 4K displays:
https://se.pcpartpic...-ls34j550wquxen

Youre looking at this LG 32 panel to get similar quality in 4K:
https://se.pcpartpic...nitor-32un500-w

Roughly price comparable, and roughly going to eat up the same amount of your desk.

#86 Camper-Hunter

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Posted 17 August 2021 - 02:36 AM

View PostHomy, on 16 August 2021 - 10:08 AM, said:

Many thanks! I'm not sure if I'm ready för ultrawide curved monitors. I know there are some uncurved too but most of them are 32"-34" and you have to move your head too much I imagine.

I have a 35" UWQHD monitor, fairly close to my head. Fear not, you don't need to move your head so much, mainly your eyes.

Quote

I also think unscaled 1080p at high-ultra on 4K would look better than upscaled 1080p on 2K. I still need to do some tests in a store.

It will be ugly in both cases. Because once you're used to high res (playing native 1440p for instance),when you revert to 1080p on such a large monitor no less, you'll find that it severely lacks sharpness and details. Like say, when you play in 720p on a 24" Full HD monitor.

True story, this week-end: I was playing an old co-op FPS (Serious Sam HD The Second Encounter). My character died, so I was spectating a friend. I told him (we were using voice on Discord), look in the distance, you can snipe this annoying and powerful enemy. But he couldn't even see it on his 1080p display, it wasn't even rendered! While I could easily in 1440p thanks to the additional details, so I ended up guiding him (aim up, left, etc.), there shoot, good job it's dead!

I imagine it's even better in 4K, but then except for old games, it demands too much GPU power, so I believe 1440p (either standard or extra wide) is the best compromise for gaming.

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Posted 17 August 2021 - 06:35 AM

View PostCamper-Hunter, on 17 August 2021 - 02:36 AM, said:

I have a 35" UWQHD monitor, fairly close to my head. Fear not, you don't need to move your head so much, mainly your eyes.
I find I move my head far less with a curved monitor. They don't extend to the sides as far as a 2nd or 3rd monitor would (depending on their size).
You may have less total screen real estate than with multiple monitors, but on the plus side, it's all continuous space, there's no dividing lines to avoid.

I was worried about seeing distortion when I switch from 1 curved to multiple regular monitors, which I do daily. But it's not a difficult adjustment. (The curved monitor looks less distorted though.)

Something I did not anticipate: my wife is overwhelmed by the huge monitor. So I set up a hotkey for her that switches to 16:9 1920x1080. This was surprisingly tricky to do on the cheap so I ended up shelling out $ for DisplayResX. Nice utility, just a bit pricey when all you want is one hotkey.

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#88 Homy

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Posted 17 August 2021 - 09:52 AM

Thanks for all the answers! What concerns me about gaming is that 32" seems like the worst choice. If 1080p looks bad on a 27" 4K monitor it would look even worse on 32". 1440p would also be blurrier on 32" 4K compared to 27". The best resolution would be 4K but I won't be able to do 4K gaming on a Mac. I admit that 32" would be best for text and other apps in 4K resolution.

2K 27" seems to be best for sharpness in games and daily usage but worse for 1080p gaming.

4K 27" is better for 1080p gaming and acceptable for text and game quality at 1440p. At the same time I still can run things at 4K if I wanted to. I feels it's the best compromise for gaming at different resolutions and other works?

#89 Tetsuya

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Posted 17 August 2021 - 04:53 PM

The other issue with 4K 27" is garbage quality.  

They arent going to be especially good for Photo work.  Half of them are TN panels!  And even the IPS and VA panels are low quality mass-market jobbies.

IMO your best bet is still 3440x1440 (UW-QHD)

More pixels than normal QHD (1440p) (which is not 2K - 2560 doesnt round up or down to 2K in any logical world), lots of screen real estate, but not nearly as taxing as 4K.  And you can run 16:9 1440p with no scaling and just black bars (which are not noticeable, really).  

Otherwise, to get a decent quality monitor you have to step up to 32" in 4K.

#90 Homy

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Posted 18 August 2021 - 06:21 AM

View PostTetsuya, on 17 August 2021 - 04:53 PM, said:

The other issue with 4K 27" is garbage quality.  

They arent going to be especially good for Photo work.  Half of them are TN panels!  And even the IPS and VA panels are low quality mass-market jobbies.

IMO your best bet is still 3440x1440 (UW-QHD)

More pixels than normal QHD (1440p) (which is not 2K - 2560 doesnt round up or down to 2K in any logical world), lots of screen real estate, but not nearly as taxing as 4K.  And you can run 16:9 1440p with no scaling and just black bars (which are not noticeable, really).  

Otherwise, to get a decent quality monitor you have to step up to 32" in 4K.

Not quite true. While there are many bad panels there are also several high-quality 27" monitors for photo work. iMac 27" has one of them, even though it's 5K. It's all about how much you are willing to pay. I'm looking for monitors at $500 and above. I already mentioned one before, LG 27UP850 with sRGB and 95% DCI-P3. If you only use sRGB there are several others. There is also Dell UltraSharp U2720Q for $650 but I think LG 27UP850 has similar or better specs for $150 less since it's a new model from 2021. Good 2.5K monitors for photo editing are Dell U2722D and U2722DE for $500 - $600 with 100% sRGB, 95% DCI-P3 and 86% Adobe RGB.  :) Anyway, we'll see how this ends.

#91 Tetsuya

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Posted 18 August 2021 - 01:51 PM

View PostHomy, on 18 August 2021 - 06:21 AM, said:

iMac 27" has one of them, even though it's 5K.

Given that the standalone LG display that uses that same panel is 1500$, im not sure thats a great supporting argument.  

My reference was to what is actually available near you (via PcPartpicker, which ive never found to be wrong about stock in any major way).  It wasnt a reference to "there are no good 4k displays below 32" (which is obviously absurd, they definitely exist but are expensive AF), but rather "there are none available near you according to the internet".  

Most of them on the list for your area are junk below 32".  The really nice ones you'd have to order from elsewhere, though i guess living in the EU thats probably less of an issue than it would be in the US.

#92 Homy

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Posted 18 August 2021 - 04:45 PM

View PostTetsuya, on 18 August 2021 - 01:51 PM, said:

Given that the standalone LG display that uses that same panel is 1500$, im not sure thats a great supporting argument.  

My reference was to what is actually available near you (via PcPartpicker, which ive never found to be wrong about stock in any major way).  It wasnt a reference to "there are no good 4k displays below 32" (which is obviously absurd, they definitely exist but are expensive AF), but rather "there are none available near you according to the internet".  

Most of them on the list for your area are junk below 32".  The really nice ones you'd have to order from elsewhere, though i guess living in the EU thats probably less of an issue than it would be in the US.

Well, you did write in general terms when you wrote "The other issue with 4K 27" is garbage quality" and you linked to 32-34 inch monitors and not 27" so I'm not sure how you figured out that there are no good 27" monitors near me in Sweden.

My supporting argument was the other 4 cheaper monitors I suggested but you didn't mention. I only mentioned iMac 27" because it's the closest thing many have on their desk and it's 27" and I did say that it's 5K meaning it's more expensive. You mention again that "they definitely exist but are expensive AF" while they're not, like those I suggested. Maybe you're thinking that for the same price you can get a 34" Samsung? In that perspective (how many inches you can get for your money) they can feel expensive but $500 - $600 for a quality 27" monitor for photo editing is not expensive at all in my opinion. My monitor suggestions are all available both here in Sweden and in the US, for example on B&H Photo, Walmart and Amazon. LG 27UP850 and Dell U2720Q are also available on PcPartpicker. BTW here in Sweden everyone uses Prisjakt.nu (Price Hunt) for price check.

BTW those two monitors you suggested have VA panels and are less color accurate (smaller color gamut) than those I suggested with IPS and 95% DCI-P3. Their contrast though is superior. :)

#93 Tetsuya

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Posted 18 August 2021 - 07:00 PM

View PostHomy, on 18 August 2021 - 04:45 PM, said:

Well, you did write in general terms when you wrote "The other issue with 4K 27" is garbage quality" and you linked to 32-34 inch monitors and not 27" so I'm not sure how you figured out that there are no good 27" monitors near me in Sweden.

Exactly how i explicitly told you i did.  

I went to PCPartpicker, selected "Sweden", and looked to see what was available.  

That simple.  Their stock numbers are updated every six hours.  Ive never know them to be innacurate (at least, no less accurate than the website of any given vendor like Amazon or whatever).  

And thats also how you would know i was referring to things near you, as i said, explicitly, i went to PCP to check what was available.  In Sweden.  

Quote

My supporting argument was the other 4 cheaper monitors I suggested but you didn't mention.

Reviews on those displays from people who actually use them for that use aren't great.  Because theyre cheap.  LTT and other reviews show them to be strictly... OK.  

Quote

I only mentioned iMac 27" because it's the closest thing many have on their desk and it's 27" and I did say that it's 5K meaning it's more expensive. You mention again that "they definitely exist but are expensive AF" while they're not, like those I suggested. Maybe you're thinking that for the same price you can get a 34" Samsung? In that perspective (how many inches you can get for your money) they can feel expensive but $500 - $600 for a quality 27" monitor for photo editing is not expensive at all in my opinion.

Mine either.  In fact, spending less than 1200$ or so USD seems like a bad idea since you get a MUCH better monitor than the 500-600$ ones for that money.   And at those prices ranges, the resolution is nearly meaningless.  In no case are you editing at native size.  Even a 12MP image is far larger than even 5k Display.  

Quote

My monitor suggestions are all available both here in Sweden and in the US, for example on B&H Photo, Walmart and Amazon. LG 27UP850 and Dell U2720Q are also available on PcPartpicker. BTW here in Sweden everyone uses Prisjakt.nu (Price Hunt) for price check.

I mean, its great that people in Sweden use a certain thing but id be willing to bet real money it isnt any more or less accurate than PCPartPIcker.  In fact, given that it is smaller and almost assuredly has less resources behind it, its likely LESS accurate.  

Quote

BTW those two monitors you suggested have VA panels and are less color accurate (smaller color gamut) than those I suggested with IPS and 95% DCI-P3. Their contrast though is superior. :)

I didnt actually suggest either monitor.  

I was showing that a 4K display and a UWQHD display of the same quality level were about the same price.  It was a comparison to show the relative pricing, nothing more.  

My point behind saying an UW-QHD would do you better was because you are concerned about gaming AND photo editing.  UWQHD gets you plenty of screen real estate (remembering that you arent editing at native res even on a 4k display) AND allows you to get good results while gaming.  Going with a 4k dispaly gets you... slightly more screen real estate (taller, but not any more pixel dense) and a worse gaming experience.  

If you're solely concerned with editing photos, spend real money on a real editing display (1200$+) and then just deal with whatever you get while gaming.  Otherwise, your best bet is still UWQHD if you care equally about both.

#94 Sneaky Snake

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Posted 19 August 2021 - 08:26 PM

Homy not sure which Mac you have, but we recently got a big order of 25" Dell U2520D (25", 1440p, IPS, 95% DCI-P3, Factory Calibrated) and they are very nice. They are also USB C and provide 90W of power via USB C, so it can charge my work 16" MBP no problem. I know 25" is smaller then you wanted, but just thought I would put it out there. It is fairly inexpensive as well (around $400 USD), despite having very good colour quality out of the box. You can run the 25" 1440p size at 100% scaling with no readability issues.

If you are using a Macbook of some sort then I would highly recommend it. The USB C connection not only provides display and power, but has a USB hub built in as well (I have my webcam, Shure MV7, DAC, and logitech dongle for my MX Keys and MX Master 3 hooked up to the hub). One cable and your Mac (or Windows) laptop has everything.

If you don't have a laptop then ignore this post.

EDIT: looked back and saw you are already looking at the PG279QZ, which accomplishes the same thing. That would be an excellent monitor choice. I doubt the Macbook would be pushing anywhere close to 144Hz in the vast majority of games so you could opt for a slightly cheaper 60Hz monitor that has the same colour specs, but you won't regret getting the 144Hz if you decide to get a more powerful gaming machine in the future.
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#95 Homy

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Posted 22 August 2021 - 12:58 PM

I have to say that this has turned into a strange discussion. Although I appreciate your intention to help you seem to take some things for granted and base other things on assumptions instead of facts. You almost sound like you, sitting on a different continent, know more about the local Swedish market here, than me actually living here. You seem to put too much faith in Pcpartpicker.

View PostTetsuya, on 18 August 2021 - 07:00 PM, said:

Exactly how i explicitly told you i did.  

I went to PCPartpicker, selected "Sweden", and looked to see what was available.  

That simple.  Their stock numbers are updated every six hours.  Ive never know them to be innacurate (at least, no less accurate than the website of any given vendor like Amazon or whatever).  

And thats also how you would know i was referring to things near you, as i said, explicitly, i went to PCP to check what was available.  In Sweden.  

You checked the monitor availability but you still don’t tell how you made the conclusion that the 27” 4K monitors for photo near me are not good. I had never heard of Pcpartpicker before but it’s just a simple site for finding and buying computer parts and comparing prices. It’s not a review site. It has a search engine where you choose the specs for your desired monitor and it finds whatever available.

You say you posted the links to LG 32” and Samsung 34” because there are no good 27” 4K monitors near me but when I choose 27” 2016p in the search options I find 87 monitors. True that many of them being older models have no price and are not available here in Sweden but there are also some that are available here in contrast to what PCpartpicker indicates. There are also new models like Dell U2722D and DE that don’t even show up there but are being sold here.

The only way to find out about a monitor’s quality on that site is to search by user reviews or look at the specs. The site doesn’t seem to have any expert reviews (in contrast to Prisjakt). Many monitors don’t even show up if you search by ratings because they don’t have user reviews. So what you do is to base your conclusion about 27” monitors being ”garbage” upon a few user reviews or the lack of them? Or do you mean you looked at the specs for 87 monitors? Even the specs there lack information about contrast, color gamut and other details.

View PostTetsuya, on 18 August 2021 - 07:00 PM, said:

Reviews on those displays from people who actually use them for that use aren't great.  Because theyre cheap.  LTT and other reviews show them to be strictly... OK.  

I searched for my monitors on LTT’s every channel and couldn’t find ONE single review of them (LG 27UP850, Dell U2720Q, U2722D and U2722DE). That includes his Youtube channels LTT, Techquickie, TechLinked, ShortCircuit and Mac address. I also searched LTT’s user forum for LG and Dell monitors I suggested and could only find two posts about LG 27UP850 and some about Dell U2720Q, none of them were reviews and in one post a user actually recommends the LG monitor for having better color accuracy being this year’s model. I also searched in Pcpartpicker’s user forum and got no hit. So where are all the bad reviews you’re talking about, regarding my suggested monitors?

You also say user reviews aren’t great "because they’re cheap". All these monitors have high ratings on B&H Photo and Amazon. They’re also more expensive than LG 32UN500 and Samsung LS34j550 you mentioned. Where are these not so great reviews?

LG 27UP850 is a new model so there aren’t many expert reviews about it yet but almost every buyer, many Mac users, on B&H Photo, Amazon and LG’s website (to mention a few) praises it’s color accuracy. Here is an expert review of a ”worse” model, 27UK850, https://www.displayn...27uk850-review/
Here is short review of it: https://topbestmonit...k-hdr-monitors/

Here are two reviews with high ratings for Dell U2722DE: [media]https://youtu.be/tg4oOgg-Bxk[/media]
https://uk.pcmag.com...monitor-u2722de

View PostTetsuya, on 18 August 2021 - 07:00 PM, said:

Mine either.  In fact, spending less than 1200$ or so USD seems like a bad idea since you get a MUCH better monitor than the 500-600$ ones for that money.   And at those prices ranges, the resolution is nearly meaningless.  In no case are you editing at native size.  Even a 12MP image is far larger than even 5k Display.  

How much you spend on a monitor for photo work depends on the type of work and color gamut. sRGB for web, DCI-P3 for film/video and Adobe RGB for print. sRGB is enough for me but I want a monitor with a little wider gamut to be on the safe side. For that reason a monitor like LG 27UK850 is more than enough and not a ”bad idea” for me. Its quality is very close to a Mac’s monitor.

View PostTetsuya, on 18 August 2021 - 07:00 PM, said:

I mean, its great that people in Sweden use a certain thing but id be willing to bet real money it isnt any more or less accurate than PCPartPIcker.  In fact, given that it is smaller and almost assuredly has less resources behind it, its likely LESS accurate.  

What makes you think that PCpartpicker is better than Prisjakt and has more resources? Because it’s an American company and the US is 22 times larger and has 33 times larger population than Sweden? Let’s look at some facts.

PCpartpicker, established and operating in the US since 2011 has an estimated annual revenue of $5 million, 22 employees and about 7 million web visits a month. Only 34.5% of the visitors are from the US. The rest are from Canada, UK and Australia to mention a few.

Sources
https://en.wikipedia...ki/PCPartPicker
https://rocketreach....5e58f66f42e60b7
https://www.similarw...r.com/#overview

Prisjakt, established and operating in Sweden since 2002 has an estimated annual revenue of $40 million (2020), 96 employees and about 7.3 million web visits a month. 93% of the visitors are from Sweden. The site has also been chosen as the best price comparison site for several years by different computer magazines. It also offers the same service via other sites in Norway, Denmark, France, UK and New Zealand.

Sources
https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisjakt
https://www.allabola...6651799/bokslut
https://www.similarw...kt.nu/#overview
https://www.di.se/di...i-coronakrisen/

So despite having a much smaller market of 10 million potential customers (vs Pcpartpicker’s 328 - 457 million) Prisjakt has 8 times larger revenue, 9 times more employees, more web visits a month and almost a decade longer business experience. So in fact it’s Pcpartpicker that is smaller, less accurate and has less resources. It may be good for the American market but certainly not for the Nordic countries. It’s absurd to think that a site almost nobody uses here or heard of would be better.

Anyway thanks for your efforts but there isn't much point to continue this discussion. My main question was the image quality of monitors at different native and scaled resolutions and I'll make my decision after some tests in a store.

#96 Homy

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Posted 22 August 2021 - 01:05 PM

View PostSneaky Snake, on 19 August 2021 - 08:26 PM, said:

Homy not sure which Mac you have, but we recently got a big order of 25" Dell U2520D (25", 1440p, IPS, 95% DCI-P3, Factory Calibrated) and they are very nice. They are also USB C and provide 90W of power via USB C, so it can charge my work 16" MBP no problem. I know 25" is smaller then you wanted, but just thought I would put it out there. It is fairly inexpensive as well (around $400 USD), despite having very good colour quality out of the box. You can run the 25" 1440p size at 100% scaling with no readability issues.

If you are using a Macbook of some sort then I would highly recommend it. The USB C connection not only provides display and power, but has a USB hub built in as well (I have my webcam, Shure MV7, DAC, and logitech dongle for my MX Keys and MX Master 3 hooked up to the hub). One cable and your Mac (or Windows) laptop has everything.

If you don't have a laptop then ignore this post.

EDIT: looked back and saw you are already looking at the PG279QZ, which accomplishes the same thing. That would be an excellent monitor choice. I doubt the Macbook would be pushing anywhere close to 144Hz in the vast majority of games so you could opt for a slightly cheaper 60Hz monitor that has the same colour specs, but you won't regret getting the 144Hz if you decide to get a more powerful gaming machine in the future.

Thanks I'll look into that, but according to Rtings it covers 71.9% of DCI-P3 and it's 8-bit, no FRC. It has many good qualities though: https://www.rtings.c...trasharp-u2520d

#97 Frost

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Posted 31 August 2021 - 09:19 PM

I'll plug for the Dell/Alienware AW3821DW here if you've got baller gamerbucks: I don't have one but I got screentime with one the last few days and holy popsnizzle it's nice. FAST too for gaming, G-sync module, the works. Uses LG's nano-IPS panels which are fantastic in every way except for contrast ratio which is just average for IPS. Everything else about it is amazing though. If it had ULMB too I'd throw one on my Dell business account right this minute.
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Iridium (MacBook Pro Mid-2012) – 2.7 GHz i7 3820QM / 16GB RAM / GeForce GT 650M 1GB / 4TB Samsung 860 Pro

Eric5h5:
When there's a multiplayer version, I'm going to be on Frost's team. Well, except he doesn't seem to actually need a team...I mean, what's the point? "Hey look, it's Frost and His Merry Gang of Useless Hangers-On!" Or something.

#98 Homy

Homy

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Posted 06 September 2021 - 01:30 PM

I found this Vietnamese review that says the color gamut of LG 27UP850 according to Datacolor calibrator is 100% sRGB, 87% Adobe RGB and 97% DCI-P3. That's excellent, especially considering the price, and on par with displays twice as expensive.