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The Last Jedi [SPOILERS GALORE]


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#1 ipickert55

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Posted 17 February 2018 - 06:43 PM

View PostJanichsan, on 17 February 2018 - 04:28 PM, said:

Okay, for the record, although it hasn't much to do with the topic of this thread, I really liked The Last Jedi. Not well enough to deem it the best Star Wars movie ever (it just dragged on too much in the middle part), but I thought it was great exactly for the reasons the orthodox Star Wars traditionalists seem to hate it for.

We can start a new thread if you'd like. I don't like TLJ because it's a bad film, star wars aside. it also does literally nothing, it moved the story nowhere and also despite Ryan Johnson claiming that he changed Star Wars by doing things differently, it changes nothing there either in terms of the larger franchise itself.

Sorry for the hijack, ill stop now.
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#2 ipickert55

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Posted 17 February 2018 - 06:59 PM

Apparently we don't have a thread on this yet. What are your guys' thoughts about the movie?
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#3 Atticus

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Posted 18 February 2018 - 08:37 AM

Utter crap.
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#4 macdude22

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Posted 18 February 2018 - 09:46 AM

Saw some pew pew and swish swish, got a few laughs. A wild Laura Dern appeared. 8/10.
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#5 Matt Diamond

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Posted 18 February 2018 - 10:50 AM

Whereas the first one was fun but shamelessly retold Ep 4, this one was at great pains to set up expectations and then dash them. Which is what the movie franchise needed, frankly. There were some excellent payoffs that NOONE predicted, and I laugh when I think about all the clickbait self-serious blovulations that came out before the movie was released.

So the director took some chances. Not all of them worked. I don't feel like posting a laundry list of problems; some are serious, some didn't matter much (they weren't critical to the plot, and with a little more care could have been avoided.) But I mostly liked it. Easily better than any of the prequels.
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#6 Thain Esh Kelch

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Posted 18 February 2018 - 01:36 PM

The worst star wars movie so far.
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#7 Thain Esh Kelch

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Posted 18 February 2018 - 01:37 PM

Chewie got a sidekick(s), so there was minor story progression.
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#8 Janichsan

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Posted 18 February 2018 - 02:24 PM

I'm a life-long fan of Star Wars, and really loved The Last Jedi, because it was the fresh wind that the franchise needed: I loved that Rian Johnson kept undermining the series' already stale traditions and avoided becoming paralysed in pure hero worship.

My biggest issue with the movie was its length: the middle part with the pursuit of the Resistance by the Last Order and Finn's shenigans on Canto Bight dragged on for too long without really adding much to the plot.

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#9 Atticus

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Posted 18 February 2018 - 04:01 PM

It felt sloppy and cheap (what she said, etc etc), more like a SyFy TV movie than multi-million-dollar Star Wars production. Oh well.

(hugs Rogue One even more tightly)
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#10 ipickert55

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Posted 18 February 2018 - 04:16 PM

View PostMatt Diamond, on 18 February 2018 - 10:50 AM, said:

Whereas the first one was fun but shamelessly retold Ep 4, this one was at great pains to set up expectations and then dash them. Which is what the movie franchise needed, frankly. There were some excellent payoffs that NOONE predicted, and I laugh when I think about all the clickbait self-serious blovulations that came out before the movie was released.

So the director took some chances. Not all of them worked. I don't feel like posting a laundry list of problems; some are serious, some didn't matter much (they weren't critical to the plot, and with a little more care could have been avoided.) But I mostly liked it. Easily better than any of the prequels.
Minor spoilers, I forgot how to make them on here.

Am I wrong for thinking that TLJ just throwing away plot lines and dashing expectations for the sake being "different" and "shaking things up", without actually providing something of substance is just bad film making? He dashed expectations by killing snoke, but then left us with a giant empty hole of: Who the frak is snoke? Snoke had a major impact on the events in this trilogy. He turned Kylo to the dark side and started all the first order nonsense, hes clearly very powerful. And i know more about Rose than I do about him.

We give Marvel movies crap for creating underdeveloped villains and then killing them off. Why does Rian Johnson get a pass?

Also, when I said a bad film, I was also referring to the ridiculously jarring editing and the ridiculous tonal shifts that were happening every five minutes. The editing snuffed the life out of so many moments that were supposed to have weight (They cut away from Leia getting bombed into space. WHAT) And when I say tonal shifts, i mean how it started with a friggin yo mamma joke and then 5 minutes later has a heroic score being played while a rebel pilot sacrifices herself to destroy an entire ship. It was so jarring.

Subverting expectations is fine, and if done well it can be a really good thing. But this was not done well, and to me these subverted expectations feel more like laziness and not wanting to write parts of the story.

This didnt feel like fresh wind, or what the franchise needed. This created nothing, we're at the same point we were at the start of the movie, and it asked no new questions. They gave me no reasons to see Episode 9.

EDIT: Also, when I was watching the movie, I was really excited at the throne room part after the fight because I really thought that the different direction everyone was talking about was finally going to happen. I thought Rey and Kylo were gonna join up and maybe create the Grey Jedi or a third faction or something, and I got really excited. But then nope. Kylo's still evil and Rey's still good, plot went nowhere.
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#11 Atticus

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Posted 18 February 2018 - 04:36 PM

Completely agree. "Subverting expectations" is Johnson's crutch for explaining away bad plot and thin characters.

As a friend commented, do not envy JJ trying to pick up the pieces left by Johnson for ep. 9.
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#12 the Battle Cat

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 10:54 AM

View PostThain Esh Kelch, on 18 February 2018 - 01:36 PM, said:

The worst star wars movie so far.

It was a fast paced action movie that was well constructed, clearly told and fun to watch, but yeah, the worst Star Wars movie so far.  All it lacked was Jar Jar or it would have collapsed into a blackhole of suck.
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#13 Matt Diamond

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 05:08 PM

People think it was worse than Ep1 or Ep2? It's like we saw different films! :-)


Mega-spolier alert: I think anyone reading this thread should assume that it is full of spoilers from now on.

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We give Marvel movies crap for creating underdeveloped villains and then killing them off. Why does Rian Johnson get a pass?
Speaking for myself: because Snoke felt like a cardboard cutout clone of the Emperor from the original trilogy. I can't even imagine a backstory that would make him more interesting. Kylo is far more intriguing. For example, I could see why both he and Ren thought they could turn each other, and why they were both wrong.

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This created nothing, we're at the same point we were at the start of the movie, and it asked no new questions. They gave me no reasons to see Episode 9.

I think it might be more accurate to say that you don't like what it created, not that it created nothing.

I liked Force Awakens but Last Jedi tried harder to find new meat on the bones. I found its answer to the question of Ren's parentage logically and emotionally satisfying. The First Order's duelling-rivals-power dynamic has now been resolved. Kylo has put away his helmet and become the tragic villain running the show. Meanwhile the Rebellion has suffered huge setbacks, but has resolved the problem it faced of a galaxy worn down and unwilling to support their fight. (That problem was introduced too late in the movie IMHO.)

There were some problems, as I said before. But I'm happy it tried to be fresh. I think the third movie is free to be a more straightforward good v evil tale if it wants; the pieces are all still there. Though it would be nice if it introduced a reason to think that it will be a more lasting victory than the Rebellion achieved last time.

It's a real shame that Carrie Fisher won't be in the third one.


Edit: I inserted some words to make it clear that most of what I'm saying is opinion, not any kind of objective truth.
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#14 ipickert55

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 09:11 PM

What I mean when I say it created nothing is that we are at the exact same point we were at the beginning of the movie. The tiny rebel alliance and a lone jedi are fighting a scary empire led by a sith. That is both the beginning and the end of this movie.

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The First Order's duelling-rivals-power dynamic has now been resolved

It has? Hux was literally ready to shoot Kylo. I dont think thats gonna just stop because Kylo yelled at him a bit. (Although Hux has literally been turned into a gag so I guess anythings possible).

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has resolved the problem it faced of a galaxy worn down and unwilling to support their fight

When did we ever learn that the larger galaxy was now willing to support their fight? We've gotten barely any clues about whats going on in the larger galaxy at all really. The Republic supposedly got destroyed in TFA and the rest of the galaxy doesnt seem to care and the rebels can now all fit in the millenium falcon (are they made up of 50 people now? its unclear how the rebels are even challenging a supposed superpower like the first order).

I liked Rey's parentage as well. I think that was needed to eliminate the idea that everyone is gifted because of genes, and I think that was one of the subversions that I really liked in the movie and I thought it was done decently (Kylo saying it doesnt matter because she matters to him).

I appreciate the effort of trying to be fresh and trying to be new, i just dont think it worked, or maybe it didnt change enough for me.

EDIT: Added a few things
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#15 Matt Diamond

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Posted 20 February 2018 - 08:34 AM

View Postipickert55, on 19 February 2018 - 09:11 PM, said:

What I mean when I say it created nothing is that we are at the exact same point we were at the beginning of the movie. The tiny rebel alliance and a lone jedi are fighting a scary empire led by a sith. That is both the beginning and the end of this movie.
I could argue that Empire Strikes Back did this too. All they managed to do (other than train Luke) was escape with their lives, losing Solo to a bounty hunter in the process.

Whereas I think one major thing was accomplished in Last Jedi. Luke's journey was to go from "what difference can one man make against the First Order" (his speech to Rey) to stepping up and finding a way to make that difference. "The rebellion is reborn today. This war is just beginning.." They did gloss over the sacrifices-- the rebels took a serious pounding. But it was about instilling hope, not about firepower.

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When did we ever learn that the larger galaxy was now willing to support their fight? We've gotten barely any clues about whats going on in the larger galaxy at all really.
I agree 100% with this criticism.

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I liked Rey's parentage as well. I think that was needed to eliminate the idea that everyone is gifted because of genes, and I think that was one of the subversions that I really liked in the movie and I thought it was done decently (Kylo saying it doesnt matter because she matters to him).
That was a great scene. Kylo meant what he said. He's oddly sincere for a villain. One of the reasons I don't miss Snoke..

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I appreciate the effort of trying to be fresh and trying to be new, i just dont think it worked, or maybe it didnt change enough for me.

Fair enough! I saw some real flaws myself, things we haven't even touched on, but the good outweighed the bad for me. I have friends who feel as you do so I sympathize.
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#16 Janichsan

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Posted 20 February 2018 - 12:24 PM

View Postipickert55, on 17 February 2018 - 06:43 PM, said:

it also does literally nothing, it moved the story nowhere and also despite Ryan Johnson claiming that he changed Star Wars by doing things differently, it changes nothing there either in terms of the larger franchise itself.
Quite contrary, it does something tremendous for the franchise: it did a huge step in moving Star Wars from being essentially little more than the Skywalker family saga, with just a small handful of important characters that somehow keeps running into each other of the course of the better part of 60 years while having a tremendous influence on the fate of the galaxy. Part of this was the revelation that Rey is thankfully not Luke's/Obi-Wan's/Leia's/Yoda's/Jabba's long lost daughter, but just some random nobody who somehow has been "chosen" by the Force. (I can only hope that JJ Abrams does not overturn that in Episode IX…)

Luke has been pushed of the pedestal as shining hero, becoming fallible, but also more human in the process.

Kylo has further been fleshed out, and gets a better and more believable motivation for his turn to evil than Darth Vader ever had. Plus, he both fails to be a worthy successor to Vader and also surpasses him at the same time: he fails by still being an ill-tempered youth with uncontrolled anger issues, but he surpasses Vader by achieving what his grandfather never did, which is killing his master and becoming Supreme Leader in his place.

View Postipickert55, on 18 February 2018 - 04:16 PM, said:

He dashed expectations by killing snoke, but then left us with a giant empty hole of: Who the frak is snoke? Snoke had a major impact on the events in this trilogy. He turned Kylo to the dark side and started all the first order nonsense, hes clearly very powerful.

We give Marvel movies crap for creating underdeveloped villains and then killing them off. Why does Rian Johnson get a pass?
I partially agree with you on that: I really would have liked to know a bit more about Snoke before he was killed off. Where did such a powerful (non-Sith?) dark force user come from out of the sudden? How did he rise to power?

But I also have to agree with Matt: what would have been the point of having him around if he clearly was poised just to be (not literally) a clone of the Emperor?

Maybe JJ Abrams will deliver some more information about him in Episode IX (I mean, it's his character), but overall, the series is – in my opinion – better off without him, exactly because Johnson killed off the underdeveloped villain in favour to the better developed one.

Quote

Also, when I said a bad film, I was also referring to the ridiculously jarring editing and the ridiculous tonal shifts that were happening every five minutes. … And when I say tonal shifts, i mean how it started with a friggin yo mamma joke and then 5 minutes later has a heroic score being played while a rebel pilot sacrifices herself to destroy an entire ship. It was so jarring.
You mean unlike for instance RotJ jumped from cute fuzzy teddy bear shenanigans to a dramatic confrontation between Luke, Vader and the Emperor, back to Chewbacca imitating the Tarzan yell in the middle of a battle against the Empire in which many of the cute fuzzy teddy bears die? :P

View Postipickert55, on 19 February 2018 - 09:11 PM, said:

It has? Hux was literally ready to shoot Kylo. I dont think thats gonna just stop because Kylo yelled at him a bit.
…and Force smashing him into the AT-M6's consoles. I think Kylo has – at least for the time being – pretty much established his dominance.

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We've gotten barely any clues about whats going on in the larger galaxy at all really.
This is also something you could say even more about the classic trilogy: aside the few scenes added at the end of RotJ SE showing the celebrations, you get few ideas about which impact the Empire and the Rebellion have on the galaxy. It required Rogue One and (judging from the trailer) the upcoming solo Solo movie to show that. In TLJ on the other hand, I suspect that one of the things Johnson tried to achieve with the Canto Bight sideplot was to show that the fight between the Resistance and the First Order in fact barely affects the rest of the galaxy, except to make a bunch of arms dealers very rich. I would say that this part didn't really work, though.

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#17 Matt Diamond

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Posted 20 February 2018 - 01:28 PM

View PostJanichsan, on 20 February 2018 - 12:24 PM, said:

You mean unlike for instance RotJ
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#18 ipickert55

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Posted 20 February 2018 - 02:15 PM

Quote

I could argue that Empire Strikes Back did this too. All they managed to do (other than train Luke) was escape with their lives, losing Solo to a bounty hunter in the process.

Whereas I think one major thing was accomplished in Last Jedi. Luke's journey was to go from "what difference can one man make against the First Order" (his speech to Rey) to stepping up and finding a way to make that difference. "The rebellion is reborn today. This war is just beginning.." They did gloss over the sacrifices-- the rebels took a serious pounding. But it was about instilling hope, not about firepower.

But, how was the rebellion reborn? Instilling hope is great and its one of the central themes of star wars but what tangible thing happened to back that up and instill hope? The rebels got their popsnizzle kicked in and Luke showed up as a ghost for a few seconds to frak with Kylo?

In Rogue One (I don't think that movie is perfect either), the rebels get their popsnizzle kicked in too, and everyone dies, but every death was preceded by someone doing their important bit to advance the plan. Jyn's speech about "taking every chance we get until our chances are spent". There were tangible actions and sacrifices backing up the hope that fueled the rebel alliance.

I would say that Solo getting captured is a pretty large plot point, also Vader being Luke's dad (spoilers kids). But I can't disagree that compared to the other two there are significantly less things moving. Perhaps its just the fate of the middle movie in a trilogy?

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That was a great scene. Kylo meant what he said. He's oddly sincere for a villain. One of the reasons I don't miss Snoke..

He's honestly started to feel a bit like Revan to me. He's clearly got an evil and severe side but thats not all he is. He truly is a just a damaged and complicated individual. I'd say he's the best character in Star Wars.

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Fair enough! I saw some real flaws myself, things we haven't even touched on, but the good outweighed the bad for me. I have friends who feel as you do so I sympathize.

Yeah theres a few things I'm leaving out, I wanna try and at least be a little focused so Im not just going on tangents :P Ive seen people in real life be all over the place with this movie as well, it's definitely interesting.

I heard one patently ridiculous tinfoil hat theory that Disney made TLJ polarizing so that people would see it twice just to be sure of their opinion on it and make $$$. Im starting to get a little suspicious... :P

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Star Wars from being essentially little more than the Skywalker family saga

I mean, Kathleen Kennedy's statement about the films following the skywalkers still applies. Ben Solo is still a Skywalker, and he is clearly a large focus of these movies, so that hasn't changed.

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Luke has been pushed of the pedestal as shining hero, becoming fallible, but also more human in the process.

I was a fan of this, I wanted more of this sort of "grounded" behavior in this movie. I will say though that it is quite a jump that Luke found good in Vader, known for murdering thousands, but Ben is a kid who's like maybe a little dark sidey so he wants to kill him immediately. That transition is definitely possible but it was quite jarring considering how fast it happened. Not the only jarring part of this movie.

Quote

Kylo has further been fleshed out, and gets a better and more believable motivation for his turn to evil than Darth Vader ever had. Plus, he both fails to be a worthy successor to Vader and also surpasses him at the same time: he fails by still being an ill-tempered youth with uncontrolled anger issues, but he surpasses Vader by achieving what his grandfather never did, which is killing his master and becoming Supreme Leader in his place.

I concur, Kylo is a ridiculously well written and complicated character, I hope that keeps up. I'm still disappointed about that throne room conversation though, because he literally said leave the past behind, Jedi and Sith, and then continued to be a sith who wanted to rule the galaxy. What exactly was he leaving behind?

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Maybe JJ Abrams will deliver some more information about him in Episode IX (I mean, it's his character), but overall, the series is – in my opinion – better off without him, exactly because Johnson killed off the underdeveloped villain in favour to the better developed one.

I don't think having Kylo kill him was the incorrect choice but i think not giving him at least some sort story or character was just Rian Johnson not wanting to. It wouldn't have been easy, so i understand why he didn't want to think of a backstory for someone who was clearly propped up to be the emperor, but it could've been done. Like even having some of his lines with Kylo in the beginning reference his past in a vague way would've at least done something for him.

Quote

You mean unlike for instance RotJ jumped from cute fuzzy teddy bear shenanigans to a dramatic confrontation between Luke, Vader and the Emperor, back to Chewbacca imitating the Tarzan yell in the middle of a battle against the Empire in which many of the cute fuzzy teddy bears die? :P

Hey, Rotj is regarded as the worst of the original trilogy and Im sure thats one of the reasons. I have no illusions about the OT being the pinnacle of filmmaking, im not old enough to have those nostalgia goggles (no offense geezers on here cough cough Battle Cat Frost). Im probably more critical of the OT than the average star wars fan, so I absolutely apply that criticism to both movies.

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…and Force smashing him into the AT-M6's consoles. I think Kylo has – at least for the time being – pretty much established his dominance.

I think that'd be super cheap if Hux just gave up after this movie, and further doing a disservice to his character. He was already made into a gag this entire movie, if they make him Kylo's punching bag and submissive then his character is just bleh. Whats the point of him? Isn't the Empire/First Order supposed to be scary and make the whole galaxy bow to them because of how scared they are? And thats the dude they have running things?

Quote

This is also something you could say even more about the classic trilogy: aside the few scenes added at the end of RotJ SE showing the celebrations, you get few ideas about which impact the Empire and the Rebellion have on the galaxy. It required Rogue One and probably the upcoming solo Solo movie to show that. In TLJ on the other hand, I suspect that one of the things Johnson tried to achieve with the Canto Bight sideplot was to show that the fight between the Resistance and the First Order in fact barely affects the rest of the galaxy, except to make a bunch of arms dealers very rich. I would say that this part didn't really work, though.

Again I wholeheartedly agree, this was a weakness in the OT and oddly enough a strength in the PT. People say the The Clone Wars TV show complemented the Prequels really well, and its because despite their numerous flaws they had pretty good world building, and it allowed great stories to be told on the side. Some of my favorite EU novels (legends now) were based on events around the time of the PT, and they complemented those movies very well.

The thing is, if he's trying to say that it barely affects anyone, then what the hell are we even watching this movie for? If none of this matters to the larger galaxy then why do we care? Maybe thats why I'm so not inspired to see Episode 9.

Wow I said I didn't want to go on a tangent but look at this monstrosity. Sorry everyone.

EDIT: I think I've talked way too much, I'll step back for a bit.
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#19 Sneaky Snake

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Posted 20 February 2018 - 03:46 PM

I've only skimmed the other posts in this thread, but I would really like those who think it is the 'worst Star Wars movie of all time' to go and re-watch episodes 1 and 2 and then compare. Episodes 1 and 2 have some great set pieces and battle scenes that everyone remembers, but I feel like everyone forgets about the absolutely atrocious dialogue, acting (for the most part, some actors such as Ewan did a good job), and story line that makes up 75% of those movies. Episodes 1 and 2 show how much the audience is willing to forgive in order to witness some epic Star Wars battles. I first watched episodes 1 and 2 as a boy and LOVED them, but after re-watching them recently for the first time in about 10 years you realize how terribly those movies have aged.

I would argue that The Last Jedi is magnitudes better then episodes 1 and 2 in nearly every way. I enjoyed The Last Jedi, but I think I would rank it around middle of pack in regards to Star Wars movies. We won't be able to truly rate it though until we watch Episode 9. I don't think it's really fair to definitely judge the middle entry of a trilogy without the trilogy actually being complete.

My quick thoughts on Last Jedi in bullet form:
  • The movie was absolutely gorgeous (from a visuals/cinematography perspective)
  • Really liked the dynamic between Rey and Ben
  • Really liked the more moral neutral direction they took The Force
  • Really DID NOT like the whole Casino plotline. I couldn't believe they had Finn and Rose wasting literally hours (possibly even days) of time in order to save some animals while the entire Rebel fleet was getting hammered. Great! you guys saved a few dozen space horses. Meanwhile thousands of your comrades died while waiting for you to return.
  • Adding to that, I really did not understand at all why the Rose character was in the movie. Would have way rather her extended screen time (she got a lot of it) was given to one of the main characters or was used to flesh out the world building a bit (we still have no idea what the first order really is)
  • I'm intrigued by the setup for the final film. I like how Rey is much more independent now (with Luke being gone)
I only watched TLJ once in theaters, so I'm interested in seeing what I think of it after a 2nd viewing once it has been home released.
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#20 Atticus

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Posted 20 February 2018 - 05:04 PM

The prequels are so bad I just kind of forget about them, so usually aren't included in any analysis I make of current SW movies. :-)
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